Doom of the Noldor

[Alchisiel]

I was thinking more of the elves that never went to Valinor why involve them? King Thingol wanted nothing to do with Feanor and his sons so why did the doom involve him and his kingdom?

So what you are saying is that because the elves that didn't leave ME were friendly with the Noldor that they fell under the same doom? That doesn't seem fair.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Now! Didn't your mother ever tell you "life isn't fair."

But I'm really just suggesting that their fates were more intertwined with the Noldor then part of the Curse. Without the Noldor all of Beleriand but Doriath was in the process of being "Morgothized." If they chose to stay in Beleriand it would have to be in some way in cooperation with the houses of the Noldor and hence would have to be effected by Noldor success/failure.

And in a way the Noldor did have some positive effect. By battling Morgoth they essentially contained his influence to an area northeast of Middle-earth and outside of the Middle-earth of the Second and Third Ages, presumably making that area relatively more safe then it would have been.

But one could argue the net Noldor effect for dwarves was negative, despite great technilogical advances for them, learning from the Noldor.

[Lachwen]

Didn't it have to do with the Silmarili? If I remember correctly (I'm not at home at the moment, so I can't look it up in my copy of the Silm), when Beren gave the Silmaril to Thingol, he became obsessed with it, "for such was its power." And I seem to remember something about "any who so even named those blessed jewels in desire were caught up in the Oath, and moved a great power from slumber." (That's not a direct quote, but it's something like that.)

Meh, I'm tired and overly warm. Don't mind me.

[InklingElf]

The Noldor's exile to Middle Earth had to do with the Silmarils -- remember Melkor killed Finwe and stole the jewels -- which was the reason they made war on the dark lord.

No the Silmarils had nothing to do with it -- i quote:

"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.
"Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall swell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come now to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken." (Silmarillion, Of the Flight of the Noldor)

So you see it is all due to kin-slaying -- sad but true.

[Alchisiel]

I just don't understand why the Avari become weary of the world. They were never in Valinor so why does the doom pertain to them? I just don't get it. The Avari were never involved in the kinslaying or the Silmarils so why does the doom of the Noldor apply to them? Why would Iluvatar doom all his children to the same fate?

[InklingElf]

It is said that the Avari were corrupted by Morgoth -- alot of them became orcs. As to why they became weary of the world -- heheh elves tend to do that alot. I don't think Illuvitar would doom his children needlesly Alchisiel.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I just don't understand why the Avari become weary of the world. (Alchisiel)

Men would dominate the world. The Quendi want status quo in Middle-earth preserved, as seen in Galadriel's use of Nenya in Lothlórien. Men, on the other hand, would change the world. It's partly due to Eru's gift . . .

Therefore [Ilúvatar] willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and in deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest. (QS I)