Helms Deep - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Tuor of Gondolin · 07-25-2004, 01:44 PM

Quite interesting speculation. I've always been rather irritated with the way both Bakshi and PJ portray the charge of Theoden at Helm's Deep. Rereading the few pages on the battle in TTT, and an interesting discussion in The Atlas of Middle-earth it seems to me that there were probably a total of about 1,500-1,800 effective Rohirric fighters (the majority on foot), versus 8-10,000 effective orcs/dunlendings. Given Theoden's charge impetus the Rohirric forces could have formed a strong effective defense for some time.

But the more interesting speculation for me is assuming the ents didn't assist at Hlem's Deep, then what? You still have Gandalf and Erkenbrand charging down while Theoden/Aragorn hold a defensive line in front.
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"Down through the breach in the Dike charged the king's company. Down from the hills leaped Erkenbrand, lord of Westfold. Down leaped Shadowfax, like a deer that runs surefooted in the mountains. The White Rider was upon them, and the terror of his coming filled the enemy with madness. The wild men fell on their faces before him. The Orcs reeled and screamed and cast aside both sword and spear."
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It would seem strongly possible that this would have led to a retreat, and significant loss, of Saruman's forces, but enough could have withdrawn to form a defense of Isengard. Saruman would have been defeated, but the Rohirrim a) weakened with some more losses b) need to have kept forces in around Isengard c) been delayed (and with a lesser force?) to Minas Tirith, leading to a sacking of Minas Tirith- but not necessarily the quest failing, since Sauron's forces and his attention would have been drawn even more away from Mordor.

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07-25-2004, 01:44 PM	#10
Tuor of Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles) Posts: 1,548	Quite interesting speculation. I've always been rather irritated with the way both Bakshi and PJ portray the charge of Theoden at Helm's Deep. Rereading the few pages on the battle in TTT, and an interesting discussion in The Atlas of Middle-earth it seems to me that there were probably a total of about 1,500-1,800 effective Rohirric fighters (the majority on foot), versus 8-10,000 effective orcs/dunlendings. Given Theoden's charge impetus the Rohirric forces could have formed a strong effective defense for some time. But the more interesting speculation for me is assuming the ents didn't assist at Hlem's Deep, then what? You still have Gandalf and Erkenbrand charging down while Theoden/Aragorn hold a defensive line in front. ____________________________ "Down through the breach in the Dike charged the king's company. Down from the hills leaped Erkenbrand, lord of Westfold. Down leaped Shadowfax, like a deer that runs surefooted in the mountains. The White Rider was upon them, and the terror of his coming filled the enemy with madness. The wild men fell on their faces before him. The Orcs reeled and screamed and cast aside both sword and spear." ____________________________ It would seem strongly possible that this would have led to a retreat, and significant loss, of Saruman's forces, but enough could have withdrawn to form a defense of Isengard. Saruman would have been defeated, but the Rohirrim a) weakened with some more losses b) need to have kept forces in around Isengard c) been delayed (and with a lesser force?) to Minas Tirith, leading to a sacking of Minas Tirith- but not necessarily the quest failing, since Sauron's forces and his attention would have been drawn even more away from Mordor.