Good guys of LOTR clueless?

[Kuruharan]

I think the Wise would have been incompetent if they had not picked out the best means of disposing of their little problem.

They decided that the best solution was to destroy the Ring (thinking out of the box). They endeavored to get that job done. They did a darn good job of keeping Sauron completely bamboozeled about their true intentions.

That does not sound terribly incompetent to me.

[the phantom]

That does not sound terribly incompetent to me.

I don't think I ever said they were "incompetent".

I'm talking more along the lines of incapable, though when I looked up incompetent in the thesaurus a couple of the synonyms seemed applicable. The synonyms listed under ineffectual seem to work well (eg unsuccessful and inadequate) so perhaps that is a better word to use.

making the good guys losers no matter what

but not that that fact makes them "losers", not in the sense which is mostly attached to that word.

If other people choose to attach a "sense" to the word losers then they can if they want, but I'm not. I meant losers exactly how it is said in the context of my argument, which was that the good guys were on the losing side of a conflict.

[The Saucepan Man]

Ah, what a wonderful thing is hindsight!

As I said earlier on in this thread, Gandalf did the best that he could in light of his circumstances and the information available to him at the time. But he was only human (or, rather, subject to human frailties). So, while he undoubtedly had great wisdom, he was not above making mistakes. He may well have been guilty of an error of judgment in not taking more concerted action to identify the nature of the Ring earlier, but I would not equate this with incomptence or inadequacy. Perhaps he would have done things differently with the benefit of hindsight, but he chose the course of action which seemed the best to him at the time.

And perhaps it was a good thing that he did. What would have happened had he discovered the true identity of the Ring much earlier? Would Bilbo have undertaken the Quest to destory it. Who would he have taken with him? Would he have succeeded to the extent that Frodo did? Possibly, given that Sauron was not as strong. But what of Saruman? Quite possibly he would have been present at the council to decide the fate of the Ring. If he had offered to take custody of it, or at least accompany the Ringbearer on the Quest, would any have opposed him at that time? Even were Gandalf also present on the Quest, would he (as Gandalf the Grey) have been able to protect the Ringbearer from Saruman? Probably not, given that Saruman was able to overpower him in Orthanc.

So perhaps things worked out for the best after all.

In any event, if failure to take an early course of action that would have prevented much suffering equates to incompetence, then Eru was the most incompetent of all. He was able to intervene to oppose Sauron, for example by "arranging" for Bilbo to find the Ring and, of course, by giving Gollum a little "nudge" at Sammath Naur. So why didn't he just intervene by having Sauron drop the Ring in the fire just after he had forged it? Talk about incompetence!

[Maédhros]

What? Could you restate that in a less garbled fashion?

Ok, there is this theory that I have seen in this thread that it seems that they could be more rings than the 20 that I know of. (9 for the humans, 3 elves, 7 dwarves and 1 of Sauron).
I do not seem to recall that there were other rings besides those (at least magic rings made by the Elves in Eregion). Do you or anyone else has any proof to the contrary, that there could be other lesser rings which didn't have gems in them that could have the similar description as Sauron's ring?

As I said earlier on in this thread, Gandalf did the best that he could in light of his circumstances and the information available to him at the time. But he was only human (or, rather, subject to human frailties). So, while he undoubtedly had great wisdom, he was not above making mistakes. He may well have been guilty of an error of judgment in not taking more concerted action to identify the nature of the Ring earlier, but I would not equate this with incomptence or inadequacy. Perhaps he would have done things differently with the benefit of hindsight, but he chose the course of action which seemed the best to him at the time.

hindsight: Perception of the significance and nature of events after they have occurred.

Lets see if hindsight was needed:
1. Gandalf felt uneasy about Bilbo's ring.
2. Gandalf knew that both rings had similar descriptions 11 years after Bilbo returned to the Shire in the White council discussion.
3. Gandalf while in that council mistrusted Saruman as to not tell him about Bilbo's ring but was satisfied about his conclusions that the ring could not be found.
4. In a world where gut feelings are as important of more important than common sense then was Gandalf not following his feeling odd?
5. If they were only 20 rings, what was the probability that Bilbo's ring was Sauron's? P=1/20, now knowing about the ones of the Ring wraiths and the 3 Elven ones, we have P=1/8, yet in his visit to Dol Guldur, he could at least discount one of those 7 dwarven rings. P=1/7.
With all those facts, do you really think that one needed hindsight at that point? Wow. With that information, it did not warrant an inmediate research about his ring?

In any event, if failure to take an early course of action that would have prevented much suffering equates to incompetence, then Eru was the most incompetent of all. He was able to intervene to oppose Sauron, for example by "arranging" for Bilbo to find the Ring and, of course, by giving Gollum a little "nudge" at Sammath Naur. So why didn't he just intervene by having Sauron drop the Ring in the fire just after he had forged it? Talk about incompetence!

The difference is that while Eru can see the events from an outside perspective (being God) he probably knows that the things that will happen there will be readressed at a later time eg. Arda remade.
While the Istari had an insiders perspective in ME that they were the enemies of Sauron and I believe that if they could accomplish their mission 50 years earlier, it would have saved some suffering in the world.

[The Saucepan Man]

I do not seem to recall that there were other rings besides those (at least magic rings made by the Elves in Eregion). Do you or anyone else has any proof to the contrary, that there could be other lesser rings which didn't have gems in them that could have the similar description as Sauron's ring?

Yes.

Gandalf, from The Shadow of the Past:

"In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles - yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous."

So, there were many rings made, in addition to the 20 that are referred to as the Rings of Power. And the fact that Bilbo's Ring conferred the power of invisibility (and caused him to lie concerning the circumstances of its discovery) did not mean that it could not be a lesser ring, since lesser rings were still powerful as far as mortals are concerned. So I would say that vastly narrows the odds of Bilbo's Ring being the One Ring from 7/1.

The difference is that while Eru can see the events from an outside perspective (being God) he probably knows that the things that will happen there will be readressed at a later time eg. Arda remade.

Surely that makes him all the more incompetent. He could see that much suffering would take place and yet did not take early action to prevent this, despite clearly having the power to do so. Gandalf, however did not have the luxury of seeing things from the "outside perspective". If he had had that luxury, no doubt he would have acted differently.

[Maédhros]

So, there were many rings made, in addition to the 20 that are referred to as the Rings of Power. And the fact that Bilbo's Ring conferred the power of invisibility (and caused him to lie concerning the circumstances of its discovery) did not mean that it could not be a lesser ring, since lesser rings were still powerful as far as mortals are concerned. So I would say that vastly narrows the odds of Bilbo's Ring being the One Ring from 7/1.

I have seen that before, but my question is, can you be absolutely certain that the many doesn't mean the 19 that the elves made?
Is there any reference elsewhere that mentions a Ring made by elves of Eregion which were not those used by the dwarves, men and elves? I haven't seen it.

Surely that makes him all the more incompetent. He could see that much suffering would take place and yet did not take early action to prevent this, despite clearly having the power to do so. Gandalf, however did not have the luxury of seeing things from the "outside perspective". If he had had that luxury, no doubt he would have acted differently.

It is interesting in trying to secong guess god. My argument for his sake is the one that I see in the Ainulindalë that all of the things that Melkor did would be redress in Arda remade and that world would be better than Arda unmarred. I would guess that God would know that the suffering in that time was for the making of a greater world.
Of course Gandalf being inside ME would have no such concept. The question that arises is that if Gandalf could have made the "good guys" beat Sauron 50 years earlier would he have done it?

[Earendilyon]

Originally Posted by Maédhros

I have seen that before, but my question is, can you be absolutely certain that the many doesn't mean the 19 that the elves made?
Is there any reference elsewhere that mentions a Ring made by elves of Eregion which were not those used by the dwarves, men and elves? I haven't seen it.

There's of course this by now famouts quote, you yourself posted on page 1:

"The Nine, the Seven, and the Three," he said, "had each their proper gem. Not so the One. It was round and unadorned, as it were one of the lesser rings; but its maker set marks upon it that the skilled, maybe, could still see and read."

As we know, that the Rings of Power had gems, the passage about 'lesser rings' was not referring to those (although they were lesser in power than the One). If not referring to the other 19 Rings of Power, the phrase refers to other lesser rings. Taken together with the quote The Saucepan Man posted, I think there's evidence enough for the existence of unadorned rings, which had some kind of power, but were not Rings of Power.

[Elu Ancalime]

Gandalf might have been on to something, but i think he jumped the gun. Surely Sauron must have had an idea of howthe Ring affected his power, because he experianced it, obviously...but since he had been defeated and taken a new shape so many times, he might have over seen it. Its like he was doubting his own power, which would give Sauruman the biggest evil ego.() However, with this, two more possibilities:

1) Sauron 's ego surpassed his sense, because of draining all the armies in Mordor for the Black Gate battle, and he set no guard on Orudruin.

2) He didnt think the Ring would be destroyed in Mt Doom anyway. He must have thought the Ring was going to Gondor, so its approaching towards the South was no surprise. However, Ssm used it at Cirith Ungol, which is definatly the senic route to Minas Tirith, and then a line from Return of the King said something like this in the CHapter 'Mt Doom.'

And then he understood the devices of his enemy, and all the plots were made bare to him...something like that.

So from that he must have known he was pretty much a goner. But then, either he knew he was dead because :

A) He thought about the Ring and the possibility of its vulnerability in Mt Doom, and when the Ring was used there he must have understood it was true, so his nagging feeling in the back of his...Eye...was right, so it agrees with 2).

B) He knew it all along, so it agrees with 1).


So Gandalf might have just said it in the quick and dirty way, so as not to generate this kind of disscusion which whould have triggered his ADHD and forgotten what the keck he was doin'.
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