Revelations and Realizations

[Guinevere]

it didn't stop him nicking and adapting for Aragorn the "All that glisters is not gold" line from Merchant of Venice.

Now that is just a common, widespread proverb, so you can't say Tolkien quoted Shakespeare when he used it! (and he turned it around: "all that is gold does not glitter"!)

And apropos the witches in Macbeth: in "On Fairy-stories" Tolkien wrote that he thought them tolerable when just reading the play, but on stage he didn't approve of them at all! (And he did write about Shakespeare "Which I disliked cordially" in letter 163)

I am quite sure he did not use that phrase! I'm fairly certain I would have noticed and not forgotten about it. (If I think of all the "proverbs" and wise sayings I collected... Have a look at the quotable quotes, ninlaith, you can see that there are people here who do remember lots of sentences literally!)

[Lalaith]

Ninlaith, it is also quite easy to do a quick and comprehensive search of LotR if you have a pdf copy of it on your computer desktop...*whistles nonchalantly*

[The Saucepan Man]

Now that is just a common, widespread proverb, so you can't say Tolkien quoted Shakespeare when he used it!

I'm not saying that Shakespeare didn't nick it himself.

Courtesy of Google:

"All that glitters is not gold" is from Parabolae, a book of poems written circa 1175 by Alanus de Insulis, a French monk: Non teneas aurum totum quod splendet ut aurum = "Do not hold as gold all that shines like gold". It was Englished [sic] by Chaucer in The Canterbury Tales (1389) as: "But al thyng which that shyneth as the gold /Nis nat gold, as that I have herd it told." (Shakespeare used the wording "All that glisters is not gold" in The Merchant of Venice; "glister", an archaic variant of "glisten", is still sometimes heard in allusion to this.)

[ninlaith]

so it would fit into his linguistic temperments he phrased it something wicked comes this way. why would i say it was in there if I hadn't seen something like it and I would know I would be dealing with people that knew about his writings as well. that would just be calling for dispute. But I'm done. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone. I lose everyone else wins.

[Bombadil]

Not to go off topic, but I've always wanted to start a thread comparing elements of Macbeth to the LOTR. Please let me know if there already have been discussons. one of the obvious main themes in Macbeth is "Fair is foul, and foul is fair." In the chapter Strider, it is said:

'I think one of his spies would-well, seem fairer and feel fouler, if you understand.'

That's almost direct! But it's also seen in many instances in Tolkien's writings, i.e. when Morgoth deceives the Eldar in Aman, and when Sauron does the same to the Numenoreans. Deception is the name of the game. The idea of power bringing corruption is another theme of Macbeth, but one that had existed long before in stories like the Republic by Plato.

Had to throw that in there, but to get back on topic: My friend told me last night that Legolas was originally one of Gondolin? And that he saved Eärendil? If this information is true, it's kind of odd to look at the council of Elrond and know Elrond wouldn't be there if it weren't for that elf with the bow!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Bombadil, here's a thread comparing LotR and Macbeth: Glamis? Cawdor? A bookworm's musings

As to Legolas of Gondolin, that appears to be a recycled name, since it cannot be the same person. For more information, please do a search using 'Legolas' and 'Gondolin' - you should find discussions by the experts there.

[Mithalwen]

To go back a little bit the linking between the Rohan royal family and the House of Dol Amroth is even more convoluted thing is even more convoluted since in addition to the first cousins Faramir and Lothiriel marrying the siblings Eowyn and Eomer which would have made their children first and second cousins!!! Eowyn and Eomer were already akin to Imrahil because their grandmother Morwen of Lossarnach was despite her title a descendent of a Prince of Dol Amroth. Maybe a sister or aunt of Adrahil married teh lord of Lossarnach ....... you just hope they opened this up a bit before the noble visages of the Swan princes were afflicted by a Hapsburg jaw.....

[Lobelia]

Originally Posted by Bombadil

d:




Had to throw that in there, but to get back on topic: My friend told me last night that Legolas was originally one of Gondolin? And that he saved Eärendil? If this information is true, it's kind of odd to look at the council of Elrond and know Elrond wouldn't be there if it weren't for that elf with the bow!

I vaguely recall something about a Legolas in Gondolin ; my guess is that he just re-used the name and forgot he'd done it, but in one of the HOME books there was suggested a possibility of a reincarnation, since that's what happens to Elves who get killed. In this life, though, he's the son of the King of Mirkwood, and couldn't possibly have been in Gondolin.