LotR -- Book 1 - Chapter 03 - Three Is Company

[davem]

Originally Posted by Estelyn

when I was growing up in Midwest US some years ago, we wouldn't have dreamed of calling people our parents' age by their first names - it was Mr. and Mrs., definitely. I know things have changed, with college profs being first-named by their students, but that is a fairly recent development,

And without jumping too far ahead, in the next Chapter, Farmer Maggot is always called so, or Mr Maggot by Frodo, Merry & Pippin. I think its too easy to blow the 'class' system of the Shire out of all proportion. Master was also often used simply as a term of respect (as Bilbo does of Sam's father, Master Hamfast), & a recognition of authority (ie Head master). My own feeling is that Sam was in awe of Frodo, not in subjection to him. Of course, he believed Frodo was 'better' than him, but that's down to Sam, & I can't see Frodo ever turning on him & 'putting him in his place' if he'd 'slipped' & called him simply 'Frodo'.

And, yes, I know he calls the others Mr Merry & Mr Pippin & they call him Sam, but I'd still put that down to the way they were probably introduced to each other. I accept there is an acknowledgement of 'roles' within hobbit society, but I think this is more to do with their love of order. They do have an obsession with having a place for everything & everything in its place. I suspect they were all playing that game. More a case of Mr Bilbo lives at Bag End & Master Hamfast lives in Bagshot Row.

Also, I suspect that when Sam was married with a family of his own he would have been generally referred to as Mr Gamgee by all but his friends.

[HerenIstarion]

I have to draw on my own resources to give you an analogy, even if I stray a bit off Tolkien

When I mused upon the subject in my own time, it struck me as really like to form of social nomenclature we employ down here, that is in (the country of) Georgia. It is the custom to call everybody by their first name (only politicians use family names, and at that in third person, not in direct speech). The honorific 'batoni/o' (relative to 'Master' rather than 'Mister') is applied to superiors by status or elders by age, but it also depends on how people are introduced to each other. To give personal example - the director I'm assistant to is called by me 'batono David' (i.e. Master David), but simply Dato (short form of David, to go in between friends) by a chap who's assistant to me and is younger than me too. Likewise, office driver is referred to as Master Tamaz by my superiors, though he be their subordinate, and I do not use honorific as we are close to each other.That is, if one tries to compare the titulage employees use to their hierarchical status, one would not find any connection.

But it is not thing to which one pays heed to at all. If I were to slip and call my superior merely Dato, it would pass unnoticed (It would not with General Director, but not because he is General Director, but as he is megalomaniac and an exeption at that). Even if I'm appointed General Director (ha-ha), and become superior to everyone else, I would still use 'Master David' in case of my director, and personal names withouth honorific in other cases, as it is already formed into my personal custom. And all those (even mere acquaintances) who now call me simply George, would not change their habit because the change of my status.

I'm near to what I'm driving at: the use of honorific is not strictly defined in hobbit society by any rules or social laws. It is very much dependent on the level of intimacy and/or on personal relationship between speakers, but also is dependent on the tradition already formed in certain circles. So, as Sam is in less proximity to Merry and Pippin, and they are at the same time friends to his employer, he feels obliged to use Mr when referring to them. In this, he underlines his respect for Frodo even more than in calling Frodo master. On the other hand, as Merry and Pippin are used to hear Frodo calling Sam merely Sam, they adopt the habit not to underline their superiority, but following Frodo's custom, and so it seems natural to them to call Sam Sam - it is the tradition of the circle, not more, not less.

cheers

[Boromir88]

This is just another example of Tolkien making the obvious connections between Frodo and Bilbo, maybe even the most important/peculiar one. I would have to go upstairs to get the exact quote but bottom line is Gildor says he saw Bilbo at the very spot where Frodo, company, and Gildor's elves were at.

[HerenIstarion]

here is the quotation:

Tell me, Gildor, have you ever seen Bilbo since he left us?’
Gildor smiled. ‘Yes,’ he answered. ‘Twice. He said farewell to us on this very spot. But I saw him once again, far from here.’ He would say no more about Bilbo, and Frodo fell silent.

[Rinfanawen]

I know this has nothing to do with what any of you are discussing at the present moment, but I would just like to put a short input in on this chapter. Before two weeks ago, I had only read the books one time, which was over two years ago. I, for one, had forgotten most of the minor events in the book, seeing I was drawn into a long "movie-only" phase. I had forgotten all of the pleasures that the books brought out, but I had not forgotten one fact.

I remember when I was reading the books that I initially fell in love with Pippin's character. This changed, however, when I began to watch the movies, and I over time forgot why I loved Pippin so much. This all became a reality when I started reading the Fellowship two weeks ago. In this chapter mainly, I see how comical Peregrin Took actually is, but don't get me wrong, I am not only meaning "comical" in the fool-of-a-Took sort of way. Pippin Took is, as I find it, somewhat intellectual and comical all the same. What made me come to this conclusion are all of the quarrels Pippin and Frodo get into on their journey through the Shire...well, not always quarrels, but also just brief conversations between the two. Such instances such as the remarks on heavy and light packing just as they start out:

"I am sure you have given me all the heaviest stuff," said Frodo. "I pity snails, and all that they carry their homes on their backs."
"I could take a lot more yet, sir. My pack is quite light," said Sam stoutly and untruthfully.
"No, you don't, Sam!" said Pippin. "It is good for him. He's got nothing except what he ordered us to pack. he's been slack lately, and he'll feel the weight less when he's walked off some of his own."

In my opinion, Pippin is actually saying something rather wise, for Frodo's sake, yet it made me laugh inside. Also just a page or two later, Frodo and Pippin make remarks to each other about whether they are going to sleep or not, and then later about going to fetch water: both instances very short, but both still lightly comical. It is not only the arguments though that made me recall the past love of Pippin. It is also his great, and outspoken, need for food when he is the slightest bit hungry, and also the fact that if he is tired, he makes sure Frodo knows it. For instance,

"I'm so sleepy," he [Pippin] said [to Frodo], "that soon I shall fall down on the road. Are you going to sleep on your legs? It is nearly midnight."

"The road goes on for ever," said Pippin; "but I can't without a rest. It is high time for lunch."

Frodo:"...'It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out of your door, he used to say. 'You'd step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to.'..."
"Well, the road won't sweep me anywhere for an hour at least," said Pippin.

It was short and sudden times as these that are found constantly throughout the books that made me love the character, and the story, this much. If not for this, there would be too many dramatic events and no time of laughter to heal from all of the seriousness. I have now finally realized the importance of comical relief.

[Essex]

davem, re your question

Why doesn't Frodo dream when he's with the elves? And more importantly, why does Tolkien feel its important to point it out?

I believe Tolkien points this out to show how safe and comfortable Frodo feels with the Elves. Think back to what happened to Frodo that day. Almost accosted twice by a black rider. He could well have had a nightmare that night because of what he had gone through. But because of the elves proximity he feels safe. just swap the word dreamless for nightmare-less.......

[rutslegolas]

So does that mean that Frodo fells safe or does Frodo does not have nightmares due to some power the elves possesses?