Tolkien and the Monsters

[Legolas]

Point being, if orcs were originally Elves, aren't they 'destined' to do what they do? Isn't it set out in the Music that they will become orcs - aren't orcs destined to be orcs? How much freedom do they have to act outside the confines of the Music?If they have no such freedom, they can't be held accountable for their choices, & so have no need to repent.

No...this "destiny" you talk about seems to exclude freewill. Freewill is entirely the point here. Certainly people aren't destined to be bad or good - their good and/or bad decisions are what destine them. The Music isn't Predestination. Orientation and Predestination aren't the same thing.


The Saucepan Man - I'm afraid you're posing the age-old, kind of answerless question: Are those that don't know held accountable? I have an "answer," but I'm going to have to hold off until I've had more sleep to verbalize it comprehensibly.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Legolas

No...this "destiny" you talk about seems to exclude freewill. Freewill is entirely the point here. Certainly people aren't destined to be bad or good - their good and/or bad decisions are what destine them. The Music isn't Predestination. Orientation and Predestination aren't the same thing.

So, we would then have to assume that Orcs could be good - yet, being orcs they are corrupt - their Hroa is corrupt, Fea & Hroa are one, so are they not, in their essence, corrupt beings? Certainly, they're not 'robots', they are sentient beings, with fea & hroa:

] Gorbag:'Those Nazgûl give me the creeps. And they skin the body
off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the
other side.

Which shows that they have some 'religious'/metaphysical understanding of their own nature - they concieve of themselves as 'spiritual' beings, whose body can can be 'skinned' off them & they themselves left 'cold in the dark on the other side'. They also seem to have a belief in some kind of after life - they can continue to exist after the death of their physical body. Can we infer some kind of reward/punishment scenario from this - offend the Nazgul (or the Mouth? - this seems to be a practiced 'technique' - not simply a nasty, groundless threat made by the Lord of the Nazgul to intimidate Eowyn) & you are punished by having the body skinned off you & left in the dark. Be a 'good' orc & you'll get some kind of reward?

Are we seeing some glimpse of Sauron the 'god-king' here, with a developed religion handed down to his 'subjects/worshippers'? If so, to what extent is their 'wickedness' based on 'religious' tenets/commandments?

[Bêthberry]

The more I look at Shelob, the more I see her as Sauron's equal in evil -- she is just another form of evil. And now I am going to take a flier: Shelob is the manifestation of feminine (note: not female) evil, and Sauron of masculine. Shelob is the complete perversion of femininity and the 'ideals' of the feminine (as embodied by Arwen?): she consumes and feeds and gluts rather than nourishes. Sauron is the perversion of masculinity and the 'ideals' of the masculine (as embodied by Aragorn?): he seeks dominion and control rather than inspiring love through his willingness to sacrifice himself.

Oh, I don't think this is a flier at all, Fordim. There is a reason why so many of the descriptions of Shelob refer to her gender--constantly and continuously is the pronoun 'she' repeated, even, of course, in her very name, Shelob. The female glutton whose appetites are so deadly and whose body is so foul and putrid. Even the orcs' mockery of "Her ladyship" is significant.

However, the text sets her up against Galadriel, rather than Arwen, don't you think? It is Galadriel's star glass which Sam recalls and which lights his and Frodo's way, the light of the pure feminine figure.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bethberry

There is a reason why so many of the descriptions of Shelob refer to her gender--constantly and continuously is the pronoun 'she' repeated, even, of course, in her very name, Shelob. The female glutton whose appetites are so deadly and whose body is so foul and putrid. Even the orcs' mockery of "Her ladyship" is significant.

(adopts Vienese accent): 'Sometimes a psychopathic giant spider is just a psychopathic giant spider'

[Bêthberry]

Now davem, I had expected it would be Sauce or Aiwendil who took that approach, not you. First of all, it was Fordim's idea first, so go tease him too.

More seriously, many ancient mythologies have figures of disgust similar to Shelob, perhaps not in spider-form, but certainly carrying all the imageries of loathesome appetite and revolting physicality and this gender attribute. Shelob is simply another example of how Tolkien extends old mythologies in very well done ways. After all, consider the Lilith--Eve distinction.

It's another literary reference, davem, not Freudian overkill.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bethberry

More seriously, many ancient mythologies have figures of disgust similar to Shelob, perhaps not in spider-form, but certainly carrying all the imageries of loathesome appetite and revolting physicality and this gender attribute. Shelob is simply another example of how Tolkien extends old mythologies in very well done ways. After all, consider the Lilith--Eve distinction.

Yet Tolkien's stories are full of monstrous spiders - from Hobbit, through Roverandom through to monsters like Ungoliant & Shelob. I think its in the notes to Roverandom that its mentioned that its one of Tolkien's sons - Michael?? who was terrified of spiders, so Tolkien put them in & described them with especial relish.

I do see the 'Loathly Lady'/Kundrie/Ceridwen/Morrighan symbolism - the 'Black screaming Hag'/'Sow who eats her own farrow. Its very common, as you say. The Goddess has a 'dark' aspect. In fact, in the Irish myths Sovereignty, the Goddess of the Land first appears as a Hag, etc. I can see this symbolism in Shelob, certainly, & there is a 'Twin-Goddess' thing going on with her & Galadriel But Tolkien does what he often does - whereas in the original myths these were two aspects of the same deity, he splits them off into separate figures - he does the same with the figure of Odin, whose 'positive' aspects are given to Gandalf, & whose 'negative' ones are split between Sauron & Saruman - there's an interesting essay on this in the Tolkien's Legendarium collection.

So, yes, mythologically Shelob/Galadriel are both aspects of the primal Goddess - Shelob as the Crone, Galadriel as the Mother (with Arwen as the Maiden) - confirmed in the fact that they are all 'weavers', which also ties them in with the Fates/Norns. The Spider was a creature associated with the Goddess as weaver - links to Arianrhod ('Silver Wheel') in the Mabinogion, & Ariadne in Greek myth.

Whether this is deliberate on Tolkien's part is the question - maybe it came through unconsciously (maybe he was part of some Christian conspiracy to 'twist' Pagan sacred symbols ).

To me all this is part of a deep undercurrent to the Legendarium - I'm just not sure that in the case of Shelob (as opposed to Lembas, for instance, which I think is a deliberate reference to the Host) that its intentional, or even conscious on Tolkien's part. I suspect that he just wanted something really terrifying, & being stuck in a pitch black tunnel with a giant spider is pretty terrifying. Plus there's the whole 'Spider in the Starlight' symbolism of the light of Earendel overcoming the last child of Ungoliant.

And I wonder how many people have followed all that! (And how many still think I'm a 'bible basher'!)

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

The root of evil is not Sauron or any other positivist ‘presence’ but the desire for “evil knowledge” (this is still a bit ambiguous: what makes certain knowledge “evil”?). The most evil thing one can do, then, is willingly to seek after that “evil knowledge".

Professor Hedgethistle, sir, I would rather say (repeat) it's pride, but I can not back myself up unless you let me pick up the copies of HoME I so prompty hid under my desk when requested. The short summary of my argument may be stated thus:

*H-I mumbles quickly unless he's stopped by Severus Hedgethistle

Melkor's corruption starts with his seek for the Fire, but it is not knowledge he is after. The rest of the baddies* as I argued in my previous but one, take after him.

Originally Posted by davem

Whether this is deliberate on Tolkien's part is the question - maybe it came through unconsciously (maybe he was part of some Christian conspiracy to 'twist' Pagan sacred symbols

Have you been reading much of Dan Brown lately?

(ultimate speculation warning alert (USWA) running red at this point):

Um, um, Mother Goddess, you say? May well be the case - after all, Tolkien was going to some pains to reconcile pre-Crhistian world of 'good pagans' with his own faith. Ungoliant/Morgoth pair** (besides Morgoth (by himself) being analogy to Lucifer) were opposed to Manwe/Varda. Latter may be representations of Earth Mother and Sky Father (not that direct, for Varda was "Queen of Heaven" too). That'd be in accordance with ancient mythology.

And than, moving on with the times (as in our world too it replaced ancient mythology), we transfer to Maiden/Mother/Crone. But if you go for MMC triple Goddess, you'll need another Mother, for Galadriel seems more into Crone business, as Shelob is way too horrible to fit in. May it be Celebrían to fill the vacancy? Than there will be direct line to fill all of the aspects, and Shelob would oppose all three.

But, as USWA indicates, we may be reading too much into it. And yet again, maybe not. I would not be surprised to learn that all of what we muse over in our 'symbolism' discussions is just an upper level of Tolkien as onion (to use Child's wonderfull expression)

___________________________

*(Ungoliant and her spawn included)
** (I wonder what Freud would have rumbled out concerning the black spear and killing of the trees (and sun and moon born as a result of it)***
*** Not that I believe a word out of Freud****
**** Except some few