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Old 07-05-2004, 08:17 AM   #1
Kuruharan
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Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Boots

This chapter contains one of my favorite scenes in the entire work.

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As they begin to climb its first slopes they looked back and saw the lamps in Hobbiton far off twinkling in the gentle valley of the Water. Soon it disappeared in the folds of the darkened land, and was followed by Bywater beside its grey pool. When the light of the last farm was far behind, peeping among the trees, Frodo turned and waved a hand in farewell.
“I wonder if I shall ever look down into that valley again,” he said quietly.
I love that section. It is very atmospheric. Ted Nasmith has a painting in his 2002 calendar called “Last Sight of the Shire” that is (uncoincidently) one of my favorites. In fact, it graced my desktop for quite a long time.

Here in this chapter we have our first encounter with those pesky Black Riders who are so formidable in reputation and terror, and yet so incapable of finishing off the job. A subject we will probably return to during the book.

First, we have the incident on the road to Woody End. This was one of the times when the hobbits were the most helpless. Nothing could have saved them at that moment. Yet, ironically enough, when Frodo touched the Ring’s chain the Rider abruptly recalled a pressing appointment down the road and sped off. Of course, the Rider could not have known that Elves would save the hobbits later, but that was the most golden of opportunities. One wonders what made the Rider pass it up. I can only think of the daylight as a possibility.

The second time, that night, the Rider showed little hesitation until the Elves (who despite their vaunted woodcraft seemed utterly oblivious to all Udûn about to be unleashed nearby) came prancing past.

Also, just to note, there is a certain similarity between the indifference of hobbits to external concerns and the indifference of the elves to the doings of other beings.
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Old 07-05-2004, 09:28 AM   #2
Aiwendil
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Miscellaneous points that I always notice in this chapter:

Gandalf's disappearance. This is really quite disconcerting, and very nicely lends suspense to the narrative. Gandalf is the archetypal wise, dependable mentor; his presence tends to impart a sense of security - he may not be infallible, we realize, but as long as he's there, we know that our heroes will have the best chance of success. His disappearance actually does two things. First, it simply removes him from the story for the time, forcing Frodo to handle things, and make decisions, himself. This is the same thing that happens when he goes away in The Hobbit (cf. also, for example, Lucas killing off Obi-wan and later Yoda in order to leave Luke without a mentor figure). But second, the fact of his unexpected disappearance is disquieting - the reader must at this point try to imagine what sort of thing might prevent even Gandalf from showing up when he says he will.

The Black Riders. In chapters one and two we have ominous signs, foreshadowing, and references to danger. But it is not until this chapter that the hobbits are in any actual danger. Notice how careful and restrained the introduction of that danger is. First there is the Gaffer's conversation with an unseen person. Then there is the Black Rider on the road that sniffs for them while they hide. In the midst of this external danger comes Frodo's desire to put on the Ring, which we know would be a bad mistake because of Gandalf's warning at the beginning of the chapter. Then there is another appearance by a Black Rider just before Gildor meets them. These episodes are no more or less than they ought to be: they are enough to indicate to us that the Hobbits are really in great danger and to make us nervous whenever hooves or dark shapes or sniffing is mentioned, but they are not so much that we yet know what sort of creatures these riders are, or what their powers are.

One tidbit from HoMe that I can't help but to mention, as it nicely encapsulates a lot about Tolkien's writing style. As originally written, the hobbits hear hooves on the road and decide to get off it and hide. A cloaked figure rides up and sniffs, then casts back his garment to reveal that he is Gandalf. Tolkien immediately rejected this version, which left him with two questions that it took considerable time for him to answer: what in fact the rider was and what had happened to Gandalf.

The fox. This is, as far as I know, one of only two passages in the book that the ostensible authors (Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam) could not even in principle have known about. It raises the interesting but probably trivial question of whether Tolkien had at this stage thought of the hobbits as the authors, and whether he knowingly or unwittingly violated that fiction. The fox passage is also notable for its fairy-tale sort of lightness and humor and is in that regard probably unique in the book. It has been criticized by some in the way of pointing out the discrepancy in tone between the early parts of the novel and the later.

The poems. This chapter has three, which is more than usual. Previously we have had only Bilbo's Road song and the Ring verse. Now we get a bit more of Bilbo's Road-related stuff, another, independent adventure-song of Bilbo's (both of these through Frodo), and a taste of Elvish song. A subtle distinction is implied here between Bilbo's character and Frodo's: Bilbo writes songs; Frodo learns them.

Gildor. This is the first in a long series of "safe place" scenes or chapters. A few elements common to nearly all of these can be seen here: 1. the scene begins with the threat of danger (here the appearance of the Black Rider); 2. there are corteous greetings; 3. they eat food; 4. they talk about grave matters and the hobbits are given advice.

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Old 07-05-2004, 09:32 AM   #3
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That pesky Fox

The journey begins! But just what kind of a journey is this…?

Thanks to the discussions about the ‘split-Frodo’ in Chapters One and Two, I have been alerted to something here in Chapter Three that I’d never really noticed before – how Frodo’s quest is being compared to Bilbo’s throughout its opening stages. His journey is both like and unlike the earlier one.

As usual, it is a hobbit’s clear thinking that leads Frodo to figure out the important relation between his journey and his uncle’s and to explain it to Gandalf:

Quote:
’For where am I to go? And by what shall I steer? What is to be my quest? Bilbo went to find a treasure, there and back again; but I go to lose one, and not return, as far as I can see.’
So far, we’ve been concentrating on Frodo as a flawed being (which he is) and I think he’s come off a bit worse in this respect than Bilbo. But here we see how the reverse is perhaps true. Bilbo’s quest was an acquisitive one: he went out and got the Ring and brought it back and kept it. Sure, he did not know what he was doing ‘wrong’ (he only knew the Ring as a ring), but the fact remains that he undertook a fairly standard quest: follow the map to the treasure, kill the dragon, keep the treasure for yourself. A clear goal and a precious object: what one normally has on quests. But Frodo is here quite astutely realizing that his quest must be undertaken in an entirely different spirit, for he must “lose” the precious object – he must seek not to enrich himself by destroying another (even if that other is an evil dragon) but make himself the poorer and give up the “precious” thing that he has been given.

So in this respect his journey is entirely different from Bilbo’s, but then we get a couple of interesting hints of how it is the same. First, when he leaves on his journey he does so:

Quote:
(following Bilbo, if he had known it)
Tolkien is so good at inserting these laden-with-meaning parenthetical comments! Frodo’s trip begins in a kind of enigma: he is following in Bilbo’s footsteps, even though he doesn’t know it! So he’s on the same journey as his uncle, even though it’s not the same, but he’s unaware or unconscious of his journey’s nature in ways that his uncle was or is not?

And this, I think, might actually help to explain that pesky fox that has bedeviled readers of the book for so long. You all know the one I mean – it’s the one that seems to step off the pages of The Hobbit by ‘speaking’:

Quote:
’Hobbits!’ he thought. ‘Well, what next? I have heard of strange doings in this land, but I have seldom heard of a hobbit sleeping out of doors under a tree. Three of them! There’s something mighty queer behind this.’ He was quite right, but he never found out any more about it.
This moment, which seems so out of keeping with the rest of the book, is perhaps a reminder that Frodo’s journey really is the continuation of Bilbo’s; that even despite the differences, there is still very much the same between their adventures. Once more, I think that Frodo has this kind of understanding when he remembers Bilbo telling him:

Quote:
‘“It’s a dangerous business, Frodo, going out of your door…Do you realize that this is the very path that goes through Mirkwood, and that if you let it, it might take you to the Lonely Mountain or even further and to worse places?”’
So Frodo and Bilbo are on the same Road, bound for different destinations, with different purposes. It this way, I think this chapter concludes the opening ‘movement’ of the book in that it rounds out the comparison of Frodo and Bilbo by mirroring them. Frankly, given what we see here, I think that Frodo comes off much better than Bilbo. Frodo is on a more obscure and dangerous form of the same Road, in which he is both dedicated to giving something up (rather than claiming something) and he is also far more ‘aware’ of that which was hidden to Bilbo (he never ‘saw’ Gildor or Black Riders in the Shire!).

Kuruharan you wrote that:

Quote:
Also, just to note, there is a certain similarity between the indifference of hobbits to external concerns and the indifference of the elves to the doings of other beings.
I think that this is an excellent point, and I hope that others will address it at some length (I haven’t the time at this precise moment)

EDIT Cross posting with Aiwendil who wrote:

Quote:
The poems. This chapter has three, which is more than usual. Previously we have had only Bilbo's Road song and the Ring verse. Now we get a bit more of Bilbo's Road-related stuff, another, independent adventure-song of Bilbo's (both of these through Frodo), and a taste of Elvish song. A subtle distinction is implied here between Bilbo's character and Frodo's: Bilbo writes songs; Frodo learns them.
More Frodo-Bilbo comparisons, and a really interesting one at that!

Last edited by Fordim Hedgethistle; 07-05-2004 at 09:37 AM.
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Old 07-05-2004, 10:42 AM   #4
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White Tree

Well, I started reading the chapter and I realized that there was yet another difference between Frodo and Bilbo (that I hope no one has pointed out and I'm very sorry if they did). Bilbo was more anxious to go on his adventure in The Hobbit than Frodo was. That would make Frodo more of a heroe then because he was an unwilling hero....just a thought that leaped out at me.

I always liked the splashes of humour in this chapter as well. It puts silver linings in the clouds of darkness and makes Frodo a much more likeable character, methinks.

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They left the washing up for Lobelia
Simply classic. I think that moments like these makes Frodo's character more hobbity, as opposed at the end of the book when he is more elvish.

Regarding the fox, I think that, technically it was a violation of fiction but maybe that's one of the reasons it's so loveable. Maybe that was a segement of the rough draft with Bingo when the novel was going to be nothing more than a sequal to a children's story.

Well, those are my thoughts on the chapter.
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Old 07-05-2004, 12:30 PM   #5
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This chapter sets off at an easy-going pace, much like the hobbits themselves, trotting through the still familiar landscape. I don't mind the attention given to (sometimes pointless) details, the rendering of meaningless small talk. The bit about the fox falls in the same category. It sets an atmosphere of cosiness and familiarity that is very hobbit-like.

Speaking of humour: there's a very well-placed irony when, after Frodo speaks against leaving very quickly, so as not to alert his townfolk, like Bilbo did, Gandalf replies in earnest:
Quote:
Of course you mustn't vanish!
That is, in more ways than one!

Bilbo leaving quickly vs Frodo delaying: Yes, but you must remember, that in both instances, it was autumn. And both Frodo and Bilbo have a thing for leaving on journeys in autumn, this is when their 'wanderthirst' awakens. I always found this very strange, and wondered why on earth they didn't think of leaving in the pleasant spring or warm summer. Don't they think of the approaching winter? This is something I really can't relate to.

I want to talk a little about the Black Riders too. The first glimpse the hobbits get of them is meant to arouse curiosity in the reader, rather than satisfy it: they are very sketchily described. Of course, that is because fearsome things must always be hinted at, kept in shadows and not analysed in the open, or else the fear dies. Kuruharan spoke about the fortunate chance of the Rider turning aside exactly when Frodo was about to give in to his desire and put on the Ring: As his hand reaches the chain,
Quote:
at that moment
the Rider departs. More is not said on the matter, so the reader assumes it was just a lucky coincidence. But when one looks at the book as a whole, one realises there are not such things as 'mere coincidences' in Tolkien's world. Every single 'chance' event is a piece of the puzzle in a masterplan.
The second meeting with the Riders verifies the reader's supposition that indeed the desire for the Ring is provoked by the presence of the Black Riders. Frodo finds himself powerless to succumb to it, but again a 'fortunate' turn of events saves him:
Quote:
But at that moment there came a sound like mingled song and laughter
Sam's whisper following the Black Rider's retreat ("Elves! Elves, sir!") somehow foreshadows on a much smaller scale Pippin's cry "The Eagles are coming!" - in that they both signify the twist in the tale when the good guys arrive unexpectedly to save the day.

The Elves' feast in the woods seems to me another nod to 'The Hobbit". Only now the Elves are friendly not elusive and feed and protect the three hobbits, though advice is being given along the lines of saying both no and yes. In the discussion with Gildor, the ambiguity of the Black Riders is cunningly mantained as, when Frodo asks details about them, voicing the curiosity of the reader - is answered gloomily:
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Is it not enough to know that they are servants of the Enemy?...They are deadly.
. But the reader is also told to expect a reward for his patience later on:
Quote:
My heart forehodes that, ere all is ended, you, Frodo, son of Drogo, will know more of these fell things as Gildor Inglorion.
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Old 07-05-2004, 12:47 PM   #6
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Silmaril One more thing, concerning Gildor

For some reason, I’m not entirely sure why, the meal with Gildor and company has more of an “elvish” feel to me than any other encounter with them in the books. Even more than when they are in Lorien, I have the feeling of the characters being caught up in a different world that they don’t understand.

It may have something to do with the state of the characters in that point in the story. They are tired, they have just been in danger, and they themselves are not accustomed to being around elves.

Perhaps the relative briefness of the section has something to do with creating that feeling as well.
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Old 07-05-2004, 01:34 PM   #7
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Ring

It's so fun to be travelling back to the beginning of the story! This response isn't very long, especially compared to other comments because a lot of what I want to say has already been said by others and I don't want to repeat too much or delve into the world of over-analysis.

This chapter, along with the one following it, is one of my favorites in the whole story. It is before things get too dark and serious (but is filled with plenty of dark hints and foreshadowing), and the whole beginning of this journey is wonderful hobbityness, not too serious, and really providing insight into what hobbits are really like. However, at the same time as the chapter opens with a pretty much carefree day in the Shire, darker hints are scattered throughout... The most worrisome being Gandalf's absence. And then, enter the Black Riders, a-so far-nameless danger that is much more immediate. Tolkien drops hints, but never tells readers what they are, only more dark mutterings. The suspence is built slowly but intensely and irresistably. There is fear, but not too much: like the readers, the hobbits don't fully comprehend the dangers they are facing.
Exposition, exposition, exposition: Tolkien discloses some things, never enough to satisfy the readers, or to fully reveal. He brilliantly builds up the suspence and foreshadowing in a way that keeps the reader-and the hobbits-wondering and curious while still frightened.
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Old 07-05-2004, 02:39 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evisse the Blue
Bilbo leaving quickly vs Frodo delaying: Yes, but you must remember, that in both instances, it was autumn. And both Frodo and Bilbo have a thing for leaving on journeys in autumn, .
Actually, Bilbo started in spring : " one fine morning just before May" (and he just wasn't given any time to hesitate ).

I love this chapter! Not only the developing suspense at the pursuit by the black rider, but I still remember so well the sense of wonder and mystery I had the first time I read of the arrival of the Elves and how I was intrigued by their song (who on earth was Elbereth?) and the first Elvish words: (spoken by Frodo) "Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo" . I guess I felt a bit like Sam... . This is the first of many unexplained glimpses into the past that Tolkien gives, which in the end led me to read the Silmarillion.
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Old 07-05-2004, 03:07 PM   #9
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I really enjoy reading this chapter. Not only because "finally" we see different sides of Middle- Earth (For my part though, The Shire, is quite perfect )but also because we get to meet new characters.

Gildor is such a great "introduction" to the elves, after my opinion. Well, if you have read the Silmarillion, (and the Hobbit for that matter) you kind of have some "background information", but otherwise I think the song and just the meeting itself is a wonderful read.

As for comparing Bilbo's adventure with Frodo's adventure; I don't really put that much into it. Part of it, after my opinion, because it was two completely different adventures. Bilbo didn't get a "quest" that depended on him alone. As if that wasn't enough, he got some merry dwarves to follow him. Frodo however was quite alone, until Sam joined him. Sam probably wouldn't have joined him if it wasn't for Gandalf (Who found that naughty Hobbit outside Master Frodo's window. ) (Then of course, later, the Fellowship).

I also think that Bilbo's was much more aware of the whole "adventure" in itself. He had no heavy burden such as the Ring. Not did he have any expectations to "save Middle-Earth." While thinking about that, I would say that Frodo's and Bilbos' adventures are in completely different genres. Although, some similarities can be found such as small details, but it doesn't really have much to do with the adventure itself.

Funny though, two Bagginses out to find some adventure which is extremely rare for their kind - None of them too willingly though.
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