The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books > Chapter-by-Chapter
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-28-2004, 06:48 AM   #1
Orofaniel
Mighty Mouse of Mordor
 
Orofaniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Lands of the North, where no man can reach....
Posts: 823
Orofaniel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Orofaniel
White-Hand

Quote:
In this chapter, the story takes a crucial turn - the true nature of the Ring is revealed, along with its history, and Frodo's adventures begin.
For me, The Shadow of the Past is where the book really begins. I've always thought of it as the beginning of a great plot. The chapter itself has a great title, don't you think? Some way, the readers just know something exciting is about to come. It's an adventure that we are going to have a minor part in. (Only as a reader though – unfortuantly )

Guinevere- I too, find that quite fascinating.

Quote:
He lived alone, as Bilbo had done: but he had a great many friends, especially among the younger hobbits (mostly descendants of the old Took) who had as children been fond of Bilbo and often in and out of Bag End. (.....)
I think this quote says a whole lot about why Bilbo was attached to younger Hobbits. First of all, the younger Hobbits liked him, I think: More or less because Bilbo probably was the one Hobbit who actually was a "bit adventures", if you see my point; he old stories about his days where he had gone on his own adventures and paths, which were very exciting for the young Hobbit lads and lasses.

Just as you stated;
Quote:
I guess it was only the children that still had a sense for wonder who listened to Bilbo's tales with relish, and appreciated and admired him.
I definitely think that is the main thing. I also think that Bilbo saw his "equal" in the children somehow; they were just as adventures as him. (Or at least I am of that opinion.)

Cheers,
Orofaniel
__________________
I lost my old sig...somehow....*screams and shouts* ..............What is this?- Now isn't this fun? >_<
.....and yes, the jumping mouse is my new avatar. ^_^
Orofaniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2004, 08:09 AM   #2
The Saucepan Man
Corpus Cacophonous
 
The Saucepan Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
The Saucepan Man has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring The Shadow of the Past

Having been a perennial latecomer so far, I thought that I would get my thoughts in early this time round.


Quote:
In this chapter, the story takes a crucial turn - the true nature of the Ring is revealed, along with its history … (Estelyn Telcontar)
Indeed. Readers who have read the Foreword will already have had it highlighted for them that this is a crucial chapter. The dark tone that underpinned the otherwise light-hearted opening chapter becomes more prevalent as Gandalf reveals the history of the Ring to Frodo (much of which he has only learned himself in the intervening years). Indeed, the only “light-hearted” moments are those which involve Sam, first in The Green Dragon and subsequently when his “eavesdropping” is discovered. (I will return to the development of Sam’s character in this chapter at the end of this post.)

Gandalf’s exposition of history of Ring builds on what we learned of it in the previous chapter, making explicit what was only implicit there (concerning its preserving qualities and corruptive power). Tolkien uses Frodo in this chapter to ask all of the questions which occur to us as readers:


Quote:
“I still don’t understand what this has to do with Bilbo, myself, and our ring.”
Quote:
“This ring!” he stammered, “How, how on earth did it come to me?”
Quote:
“O Gandalf, best of friends, what am I to do?”
Quote:
“But why not destroy it, as you say should have been done long ago?”
Quote:
“You are wise and powerful. Will you not take the Ring?”
So, having led the reader to identify with Hobbits in general in the Prologue and the preceding chapter, Tolkien here puts us in the (metaphorical) shoes of Frodo, our central character, who, like Bilbo, is portrayed as “different” from your average Hobbit.

Frodo’s questions and comments, and Gandalf’s replies to them, also touch upon issues which go the very heart of the story. For example:


Quote:
“I am not made for perilous quests. I wish I had never seen the Ring! Why did it come to me? Why was I chosen?

“Such questions cannot be answered,” said Gandalf. “You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess: not for power or wisdom, at any rate. But you have been chosen and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits that you have.”
And


Quote:
“What a pity that Bilbo did not stab that vile creature, when he had a chance!”

“Pity?” It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so. With Pity.”

“I am sorry,” said Frodo. “But I am frightened; and I do not feel any pity for Gollum.”



“Now at any rate he is as bad as an Orc, and just an enemy. He deserves death”.

“Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be so eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or for ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many – yours not least.”
Contrast Frodo’s attitude here with his approach to Gollum when they finally meet (which is informed by Gandalf’s wise words here) and the pity which he displays to Saruman in The Scouring of the Shire. Gandalf’s words, of course, also foreshadow the role that Gollum ultimately plays with regard to the fate of the Ring, which would not have been possible without Bilbo’s (and Frodo’s) pity.

I like the way that, as this chapter unfolds, we come to regard the Ring as another character in the story. Gandalf’s words give it a persona. He tells Frodo (and us):

Quote:
“A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it.”
This is the most obvious reference, but almost every reference to the Ring portrays it as something which has its own will and its own agenda (to get back to its master). Interestingly in this regard, it became apparent to me as I searched for quotes to post above that it starts out the chapter being referred to as the ring but that, as we (and Frodo) learn more about it, it becomes the Ring, ie with the first letter capitalised as if it were the name of a character (which, of course, it is).

For me, however, the key passage in this chapter comes when Gandalf suggests that Frodo himself tries to do away with the Ring:


Quote:
Frodo drew the Ring out of his pocket again and looked at it. It now appeared plain and smooth, without mark or device that he could see. The gold looked very fair and pure, and Frodo thought how rich and beautiful was its colour, how perfect its roundness. It was an admirable thing and altogether precious. When he took it out he had intended to fling it from him into the very hottest part of the fire. But he found that he could not now do so, not without great struggle. He weighed the Ring in his hand, hesitating, and forcing himself to remember all that Gandalf had told him; and then with an effort of will he made a movement, as if to cast it away – but he found that he had put it back in his pocket.
What a fantastic piece of writing! Starting out with a simple description of the Ring, the passage gradually builds on Frodo’s regard of it to the point of obsession, culminating with the second reference in two chapters to it, by a character other than Gollum, as “precious”. Here we can clearly and explicitly see the beguiling effect of the Ring on its bearer and we can, perhaps, begin to understand just what went through Smeagol’s mind when he first set eyes on it. The device of having Frodo attempt to throw the Ring away, only to put it back in his pocket (echoing Bilbo’s attempts to leave the Ring behind in the previous chapter) is brilliantly conceived. These few sentences speak volumes of the nature and the power of the Ring. This passage, of course, foreshadows Frodo’s ultimate “failure” at Sammath Naur. And, reading it again, it suggests to me the inevitability of that “failure”, although I wonder how many of us had that sense when we first read the book.

Finally, a few words on the development of Sam’s character in this chapter. I like the way that he is portrayed sympathetically in his conversation with Ted Sandyman in The Green Dragon. Although Ted Sandyman appears to have the upper hand in the conversation, and as far as the Hobbit onlookers are concerned “scores points” off Sam, we know that it is in fact Sam who is speaking sense here. We already have the impression that there is danger afoot outside the cosy confines of the Shire, and Gandalf later starkly confirms this for us in his discussion with Frodo.

Later, when discovered outside the window by Gandalf, Sam's humorous response helps to relieve the tension which has built up throughout most of the chapter. Even Frodo is hardly able to keep from laughing, despite the horror of all that he has learned. However, I must say that I am not (and have never been) all that keen on the “There ain’t no eaves at Bag End, and that’s a fact” line. Personally, I suspect that this line is single-handedly responsible for the dreadful characterisation of Sam in the Bakshi animated film. In any event, while we later see him as the repository of earthy wisdom and unlikely hero that he really is, I do tend to think that this foolish (albeit humorous) comment starts us out on the wrong footing with Sam (if you take my meaning ). Nevertheless, his otherwise sympathetic portrayal in the previous chapter and earlier in this chapter (which do suggest that there are hidden depths to him) do, I think, reassure us that Frodo has a suitable companion for his coming journey.
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!
The Saucepan Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2004, 08:38 AM   #3
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
(Edit: cross-posted with Saucepanman)

What struck me most re-reading the chapter was Frodo's attitude:

Quote:
'Gollum!' Cried Frodo. 'Gollum? Do you mean that this is the very Gollum-creature that Bilbo met? How loathsome!'

'I think it is a sad story.' said the wizard, 'and it might have happened to others, even some hobbits I have known.'

'I can't believe that Gollum was connected with hobbits, however distantly,' said Frodo with some heat. 'What an abominable notion!'
Later he interupts Gandalf, accuses him of inaction, demands to know why Bilbo didn't stab to death an unarmed opponent at a disadvantage, & why Gandalf doesn't make him destroy or throw away the Ring. He then tries to make Gandalf take it.

Finally, when he accepts the task, what does he give as his motivation?

Quote:
I should like to save the Shire, if I could - though there have been times when I thought the inhabitants too stupid & dull for words, & have felt that an earthquake or an invasion of dragons might be good for them'
I suppose my memory of Frodo is of a selfless individual willing to sacrifice himself to save the world. But reading this chapter I don't get that impression. He seems selfish, judgemental, cowardly - the very things he condemns his fellow hobbits for. Maybe he's the one who needs to be confronted with earthquakes & dragons! His first response when confronted with the danger he is in is to try & get Gandalf to take the Ring - but why should Gandalf take it? Frodo doesn't know Gandalf's nature or role. Frodo has something dangerous in his possesion, & instantly he tries to get his 'friend' to take the dangerous thing away from him. He would even rather Bilbo had commited murder if that had meant he could have continued with his safe little life.

Then, the 'flip' - he will accept his burden - because he wants to save the Shire!. He's flipped from a coward to a meglomaniac, or at least a 'messiah'!

Now in all this do we see the influence of the Ring on an innocent hobbit, or do we see a 'selfish, judgemental coward'?

I think all this is deliberate on Tolkien's part - he wants us to see Frodo as being like ourselves. Frodo is certainly not a hero at first, not even admirable. Recalling my first reading, it took me a while to get to like Frodo - I read LotR straight after The Hobbit, & I liked Bilbo much more for a good part of the first book. I think the way Tolkien shows the growth of Frodo's character is wonderful, & it will be interesting to see how much he changes, & how he is 'purged of the gross' as the story progresses. And to see how much of the original Frodo is left by the end.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2004, 08:46 AM   #4
Fordim Hedgethistle
Gibbering Gibbet
 
Fordim Hedgethistle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
Fordim Hedgethistle has been trapped in the Barrow!
One of my favourite chapters in the whole book. I shall attempt to be as brief as possible, and contain myself to two passages only, both of which develop the nature of the Ring, and highlight how it will be the centre of the narrative to follow.

Quote:
’Three Rings for the Elven kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in the halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne,
In the land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all, and the darkness bind them
In the land of Mordor, where the Shadows lie.’
The famous poem: certainly Tolkien’s best bit of verse (I think). And it clearly sets up a number of very important ideas about the Ring and its relation to other peoples, as well as its nature. First, there’s the resonating and insistent beat of the “One, One, One, One” of the Ring and Sauron versus the multiplicity of the other rings/peoples (three, seven, nine). Where the list of Rings that are associated with the free folk goes up in number (implying increase and diversity?) the Ring of Sauron is singular and one and remains one throughout the poem.

Another aspect of the poem is how it gives us a glimpse into then natures of the free folk: Elves live “under the sky” (beneath the protection/guidance of the Valar? As signified by the presence of Earendil and the other stars that they ‘worship’?); the Dwarves live under the earth where they are walled off from others “in their halls of stone”; and Men who are “doomed to die” – this is both good and bad: death is not nice, nor is having a “doom”, but doom in its fullest sense does not necessarily mean something bad, but “fated”. So in this sense, the Men are contrasted to the Elves (who are ‘trapped’ forever by their immortality “under” the sky like the Dwarves under the earth). Unlike them, Men die and find the gift of Eru.

The words associated with the Ring are extraordinarily telling: “rule, find, bring, bind”. I love the order of the words here – the Ring ‘begins’ with the desire to Rule, which necessitates ‘finding’ how and who to rule, which then leads to ‘bringing’ those people under rule, and brining to bear upon them the methods of rule, and it all ends with ‘binding’ them into that singular Rule. It’s a wonderfully brief and telling description/exploration of how power works.

There’s also two puns in the poem that speak volumes about the Ring. First, it’s from a place where “Shadows lie.” I love this: not just where shadows are, but where the Shadows deceive – this is how Sauron works, and this is how the Ring works: it’s a think of shadows and shadowy lies as it promises power that it will not bring; most importantly it tells the greatest lie of all: that by claiming it, one will find fulfilment of one’s desires, not the emptying of the will. The Ring is the ultimate lie: “take me and rule” when what it’s really all about is “be taken by me and be ruled.”

The second pun is the name of Mordor itself – it’s always looked to me a lot like the Anglo-Saxon word for murder morðor (pronounced “morthor”). I think this contrasts to the “Mortal Men doomed to die” – it is in the nature of humanity to die, it is our fate; the Ring is from a place that perverts that fate through unnatural death (that is, the murder/loss of our very mortality by enslavement to Sauron becoming Wraiths).

Quote:
[Frodo] unfastened [the Ring] and handed it slowly to the wizard. It felt suddenly very heavy, as if either it or Frodo himself was in some way reluctant for Gandalf to touch it.
The ambiguity of this moment is crucial to any understanding of the Ring, I think. Already, Frodo is unsure of where he ends and the Ring begins: who is the reluctant party here? Is the Ring overmastering his will, or is his will being turned to the point where he can’t give up the precious object. This is an ambiguity that I would suggest lasts through the whole novel – is Frodo being enslaved by the Ring or seduced? This idea of the Ring’s weight is a good way to make this point, for is it getting heavier and thus overpowering Frodo, or is he getting weaker and thus no longer able to bear the weight of the Ring?

One more note: I think we have a slight hint here of what Gandalf might (if pressed by Elrond, for example) have admitted was at the back of his mind for the quest ahead: he is the one who casts the Ring into the fire when Frodo is not able to. As Saucepan Man has already pointed out, Frodo is here at the beginning of his quest already completely incapable of throwing the Ring into his own little “fire,” so from that perspective he’s doomed to fail from the outset. But we’ve got this moment where Gandalf is able to convince Frodo to hand over the Ring, and then he does the deed himself. . . I’m not making any claims, I just think that it’s a reason to pause for thought.
Fordim Hedgethistle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2004, 09:59 AM   #5
The Saucepan Man
Corpus Cacophonous
 
The Saucepan Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
The Saucepan Man has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring Frodo? Selfish and cowardly?

Davem


Quote:
He seems selfish, judgemental, cowardly - the very things he condemns his fellow hobbits for.
While I agree with you that Tolkien wanted his readers to identify with Frodo, I would not go so far as to describe him in these terms. To me, his reactions appear entirely understandable given the import of what Gandalf is telling him. My first reaction would be to ask Gandalf, a wise and powerful figure, to take this terrible artefact. In response to Frodo's question, Gandalf explains why he cannot do so. As for Frodo's sentiments concerning Gollum, again I see these as entirely natural given what he (and we) know at this stage concerning this "vile creature". One sentence in particular in this chapter intensifies my disgust for Gollum:


Quote:
It climbed trees to find nests; it crept into holes to find the young; it slipped through windows to find cradles.
The final statement, suggesting as it does that Gollum devoured babies snatched from their cradles, is truly horrifying. Why should we feel any more pity for Gollum than we do for other creatures that engage in such behaviour, such as Goblins? Well, in response to Frodo's reaction, Gandalf tells us exactly why it is that we should pity him. And so, later on, when we meet Gollum and see the effect of Frodo's pity on him, we can appreciate exactly what it is that Gandalf is telling us here.

Quote:
I think we have a slight hint here of what Gandalf might (if pressed by Elrond, for example) have admitted was at the back of his mind for the quest ahead: he is the one who casts the Ring into the fire when Frodo is not able to.
You may well be right here, Fordim. Certainly, in light of what Gandalf knows concerning the Ring, he is unlikely to have thought Frodo capable of destroying it voluntarily. Alternatively, however, his references to Bilbo having been meant to find the Ring and Frodo being meant to have it, together with his comment that Gollum may yet have some further role to play, might suggest that he was trusting in the intervention of "providence" at the crucial moment all along.
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!
The Saucepan Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2004, 11:50 AM   #6
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
I'd say Frodo is selfish - he is quite self centred - he keeps himself apart from the other hobbits, he plays no real part in his community. His first thought on finding that the Ring is dangerous is to try to pass it on to someone he is supposed to care about. He wants someone else to take responsibility for the Ring from him. He'd rather Bilbo, the one who has given him the luxurious lifestyle & the wealth he enjoys, had killed Gollum - & at that time Gollum hadn't killed anything but Deagol & orcs- no babies. And lets not forget that Gandalf has no evidence that Gollum had taken babies from their cradles - Gandalf is merely reporting rumours he has heard (though they were probably true, admittedly).

He has such contempt for the people he's grown up around that he has had fantasies of them being caught up in earthquakes, or attacked by dragons - & that thought hadn't just popped into his mind at that point - he'd had those fantasies previously. He's judgemental - he has mentally sat in judgement on his neighbours & found them wanting & deserving of horrendous punishment. He's wished suffering on them - just to 'wake them up', & so, presumably to make them more acceptable to him. He passes a death sentence on Gollum, wishing he was dead.

I think Gandalf realises that Frodo has these faults, & this is why he constantly, (though usually gently) rebukes him throughout the chapter for them.

Of course, I am putting the 'case for the prosecution' here. We also see Frodo's potential - the decision to take the Ring, & put his life at risk is noble, to say the least, but I think there is a 'darker' side to it, which, looking back on the story from the end, is easily forgotten. We see it in his first thoughts on awaking in the Barrrow for instance.

My real question is to what extent this 'dark' side we see is the action of the Ring on him, & how much is innate?
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2004, 01:06 PM   #7
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh
Spectre of Decay
 
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bar-en-Danwedh
Posts: 2,178
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Squatter of Amon Rûdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Send a message via AIM to The Squatter of Amon Rûdh
Pipe Some assorted musings.

It's interesting that here, in only the second chapter of the book, we already see the Ring as something that destroys the will of its bearers, which twists and perverts them. From this chapter the reader learns all that is necessary to understanding Gollum and the action of the central item of the story. It also contains one of the best descriptions of an addictive possession that I have ever read:
Quote:
'All the "great secrets" under the mountains had turned out to be just empty night: there was nothing more to find out, nothing worth doing, only nasty furtive eating and resentful remembering. He was altogether wretched. He hated the dark, and he hated the light more: he hated everything, and the Ring most of all.'

'What do you mean?' said Frodo. 'Surely the Ring was his precious and the only thing he cared for? But if he hated it, why didn't he get rid of it, or go away and leave it?'

'You ought to begin to understand, Frodo, after all you have heard,' said Gandalf. 'He hated it and loved it, as he hated and loved himself. He could not get rid of it. He had no will left in the matter.'
This final comment from Gandalf is chilling. Gollum is utterly alone and debased: he hates his condition and himself, and he hates the Ring, which has brought him lower than he would ever have sunk on his own. Yet he also loves his tormenting 'precious' with a possessive intensity that has utterly consumed his will. The Ring can now drive him without being close to him, without even being within his sight; and the rumours that follow him are more dreadful than any ancient and long-forgotten murder could ever be. In the light of this passage, Gandalf is entirely right. Sméagol's crime and punishment have become a single long nightmare of solitary misery. He no longer loves even himself, and is therefore an object of pity to those who understand. Frodo will come to know what it is to hold the Ring, as will Sam, and both of them will show more mercy than we would believe possible from their talk and actions beforehand. The overall message is, near enough, 'There but for the grace of God go I.'

For those who might be thinking that they have the presence and strength of mind to resist the Ring's blandishments, Tolkien has Gandalf himself explain how he would inevitably fall to evil were he to keep it:

Quote:
'No!' cried Gandalf, springing to his feet. 'With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly,' His eyes flashed and his face was lit as if by a fire within. 'Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me.'
This establishes two points: it tells us that even Gandalf is not sufficiently strong to resist the Ring for any length of time, and that the Ring has a way into every heart, no matter how strong or wise it may be. Later in the book we will discover that there is an exception, but that character is exceptional in more ways than one.

This chapter is one of foreshadowing, of chains of events set in motion many centuries in the past, leading into a dark and uncertain future. At present, the Shire appears a safe and peaceful place, but the gathering storm is already affecting it as harried refugees bring dark and strange stories to its borders. Seen in the light of the book's ending, Frodo's words about the Shire have an air of pathos about them: "I feel that as long as the Shire lies behind, safe and comfortable, I shall find wandering more bearable: I shall know that somewhere there is a firm foothold, even if my feet cannot stand there again." The Shire will cease to be a foothold, and it will require saving more than once before the story is over.

Other things are hinted at here that have yet to demonstrate their importance. The tree-man seen by Sam's cousin Halfast, present from very early in the development, hints at the existence of the Ents. It is interesting to note that this incident is present long before Tolkien knew anything about Fangorn Forest or Treebeard. The discussion of this incident between Sam and Ted Sandyman also gives us a chance to see the sort of circular arguments that Hobbits use when presented with something unfamiliar or frightening. It's another piece of social observation, funny in its way, but threatening in the light of the general atmosphere: Sandyman's words have the ominous overtones of someone who is wilfully ignoring the truth:

Quote:
'All right,' said Sam, laughing with the rest. 'But what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.'
'Who's they?'
'My cousin Hal for one. He works for Mr. Boffin at Overhill and goes up to the Northfarthing for the hunting. He saw one.'
'Says he did, perhaps. Your Hal's always saying he's seen things; and maybe he sees things that ain't there.'
'But this one was as big as an elm tree, and walking - walking seven yards to a stride, if it was an inch.'
'Then I bet it wasn't an inch. What he saw was an elm tree, as like as not.'
'But this one was walking, I tell you; and there ain't no elm tree on the North Moors.'
'Then Hal can't have seen one,' said Ted. There was some laughing and clapping: the audience seemed to think that Ted had scored a point.
Already the weaknesses in the Shire that will topple it to Saruman are becoming evident, and one of the conspirators in its collapse is demonstrating the myopic lack of thought that will help to bring about the fallen wizard's dominion.

I'm beginning to get ahead of myself again, so I shall leave off while there are still points to be made.
__________________
Man kenuva métim' andúne?
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2004, 02:41 AM   #8
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
First of all, if anyone is interested in seeing how this chapter developed, I posted an 'analysis' (for want of a word that implies less competence) yesterday on the chapter by chapter thread:http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=10847 post no 19).

What's interesting to me is that in the earlier versions, Gollum is far less 'evil' In fact He seems to become increasingly 'monstrous' as Tolkien develops the story. Its easier to feel compassion for the earlier Gollum than the later one. Perhaps this is to emphasise the evil of the Ring - as it is transformed from being just 'one ring' among others into being the One Ring' to rule all others, its effect on those who come into contact with it also grows. Tolkien is making Gollum increasingly monstrous - in the end he makes Gollum into the most evil, psychopathic, twisted 'thing', we could imagine.

But the most interesting thing is Gandalf's statement that in the end Gollum 'had no will in the matter'. The Ring has dominated his will completely & he has no ability to choose - so in one of the first statements about the Ring in the book, Tolkien is going all Manichean on us - the Ring is a malevolent force that can dominate one's will & control one's behaviour - but, from a Christian perspective, this is heresy. Also, from a Middle Earth perspective - Tolkien has stated in Osanwe Kenta that no individual's will can be dominated by another - the individual must submit, & can end that submission at any time if they choose.

So, has Gollum's will really been destroyed by the Ring? And if it has then where is the hope? The whole thing becomes merely an external battle between forces of 'Good' & 'Evil', & the moral choices of any individual have no real part to play in deciding the outcome of the battle - simply put, the more powerful side will win. But Tolkien's position is that moral choices will decide the outcome, not strength of arms. But if Gollum's will can be overthrown against his will this is not the case.

Last edited by davem; 06-29-2004 at 06:01 AM.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:08 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.