Feedback and Suggestion Box

[The Barrow-Wight]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

I don't think cluttering up this Chapter-by-Chapter section with "alternate draft" threads is the answer.

That was my real meaning, Mister Underhill. We've already had concerns about the Chapter-by-Chapter discussions being available to everyone, so we must be careful not to go roaming away from our true purpose - a Chapter by Chapter discussion of the Lord of the Rings. HoME is a wonderful resource for those who are interested in delving so deeply into the foundations of the story, but HoME is not LotR.

[mark12_30]

BW, I agree that cluttering up the Chapter-by-Chapter area is not good. That was why I suggested (a) thread(s) in Books proper.

Still waiting for Child and Esty to weigh in...

[tar-ancalime]

davem said:

Also, we have to keep in mind always, that some readers like to indulge in the fantasy that LotR is 'real' history, & don't want to be reminded that its all 'made up' by being presented with different versions of the story - it can destroy the magic (breaking things to find out what they're made of, etc)

I think that alternate versions of stories promote the fantasy/conceit/whatever that LotR et al is real history. It seems to me that most of historical research consists of sifting through conflicting reports of events and trying to find or compile the account that is most in accordance with the historian's motives (such as an abstract idea of "truth," the glorification or demonization of particular historical figures or cultures, or some parallel with present events, for instance). The messier and more contradictory the sources, the more they are like real historical primary sources.

Not that I'm trying to weigh in on whether HoME should be part of these discussions--I haven't read it myself, and in fact haven't even been posting much on the chapter-by-chapter discussions, simply because they move too fast for me to keep up! I'm enjoying following along, though. There are lots of great ideas going around.

(I apologize if this comment is not appropriate for this thread--it's not really a suggestion at all--it's just that the possibility of alternate accounts is one of the things that I've always liked best about Tolkien.)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I've read through the various suggestions here and agree that HoME should play only a small part in the Chapter-by-Chapter LotR discussions, since it is another book altogether. However, the parallel discussion is interesting for those who would like to join in, including myself. I suggest we open a thread on the main Books forum, named after the volume being discussed - in this case, The Return of the Shadow.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Please excuse my absence. I had my hands full today with family obligations and was surprised to return and find I had unknowingly generated a small "tornado".

Your suggestion seems wise, Esty, regarding a separate thread. My initial intent was not to start a full-scale discussion of HoMe, although I will be glad to contribute to such a thread in the Books forum. Rather it was a personal resolve to read through the two books in tandem, and, where something was directly pertinent to the wider discussion, to mention that briefly in the chapter thread-- perhaps just two or three sentences--in the same way that many others have quoted various sources. I am assuming this wouldn't be a problem.

Yes, on my own time, I do intend to look at certain things in depth, and one of these is the vexing question of how and when Tolkien's "Christian" revisions came about. But, if I found something interesting, I assumed that it would eventually go up on a separate thread in Books, either an old one or a new one.

Just one comment as to the importance of HoMe.... my interest in HoMe is not so much in looking at those ideas and motifs that were rejected, but rather to see exactly when the ideas, characters, names, etc. that did become part of the book first made their appearance. In this sense, I do think HoMe is more than simply a collection of rejected drafts. Each draft built on the one before. Through its pages, we can gain a better idea of how JRRT constructed his story, the process of writing and evolving ideas. But I do agree that such an in-depth discussion would be better off separate from the chapter-by-chapter thread.

I hope this clarifies things, at least in terms of what I was thinking.

[Mister Underhill]

That sounds perfectly reasonable. We've already started out in that spirit with discussion of the original version of the Foreword. A few references to points of interest on how or why certain elements developed would be, I think, generally interesting and not exclusionary.

More in-depth discussion of a particular point, or of aspects of HoME which might not fit well here, can be carried on in the Chapter-by-Chapter HoME Companion thread that I've set up in Books.

We'll start with one thread for now and see how it goes. We can easily expand to, say, a thread per HoLotR book if it looks like the conversation will bear it.

[HerenIstarion]

Suggestion: let us make a thread (or even a poll) for "the most popular chapter in the book"?

let me explain myself:

Chapter by Chapter discussion sub-forum provides information in two categories: most replies and most views. I suppose both can index how much people enjoy this or that particular chapter. Purely statistical calculations show that the most popular (?!) is the prologue:

The situation as for today:

Replies:

1. Prologue - 101
2. Foreword - 97
3. Chapter 02 - 76

4. Chapter 01 - 64
5. Chapter 10 - 58
6. Chapter 03 - 56
7. Chapter 04 - 53
8. Chapter 07 - 45
9. Chapter 05 - 36
10. Chapter 06 - 32
11. Chapter 08 - 28
12. Chapter 11 - 15
13. Chapter 09 - 14

Views:

1. Foreword - 2,201
2. Prologue - 1,752
3. Chapter 01 - 1,295

4. Chapter 02 - 1,194
5. Chapter 03 - 976
6. Chapter 04 - 774
7. Chapter 07 - 704
8. Chapter 10 - 610
9. Chapter 06 - 519
10. Chapter 05 - 510
11. Chapter 08 - 473
12. Chapter 09 - 317
13. Chapter 11 - 217

So, the overall ratio would be:

1. Prologue ((1+2)/2 = 1.5)
-. Foreword ((2+1)/2 = 1.5)
3. Chapter 02 ((3+4)/2 = 3.5)
-. Chapter 01 ((4+3)/2=3.5)
5. Chapter 03 ((6+5)/2=5.5)
6. Chapter 10 (5+8)/2=6.5)
7. Chapter 04 ((7+7)/2=7)
8. Chapter 07 ((8+7)/2=7.5)
9. Chapter 05 ((9+10)/2=9.5)
-. Chapter 06 ((10+9)/2=9.5)
11. Chapter 08 ((11+11)/2=11)
12. Chapter 11 ((12+13)/2=12.5)
-. Chapter 09 ((13+12)/2=12.5)

Now, both depend on time of each particular chapter discussion being around (the latter, by views, more so), and the summer time and lack of number of members due to their vacation time may be affecting the statistics too, but I believe it would be fun to compare the notes by the end of the discussion maraphon. The chapter with the ratio most close to 1 will be the winner.

What do you think?

[The Perky Ent]

Will Chapter by Chapter continue on to The Hobbit?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

That's what I've planned next. Those discussions should begin in January.

[davem]

Originally Posted by The Perky Ent

Will Chapter by Chapter continue on to The Hobbit?

I'd say that depends on how many people want it to. CbC seems to have slowed down a lot, with very few posts compared to the early chapters.

I have to admit I'm feeling a bit like Frodo & Sam now, plodding on to the end - we still have, what, 10 chapters, plus the Appendices to go.

Will enough of us want to go straight on to TH or shall we have a break?

[The Perky Ent]

Your call. But I've got my Sting sword and my arkenstone ready for when you do I think I'll start doing the Chapter by Chapters, as y'all are getting to some good ones

[davem]

Well, we've now begun discussing The Last Debate, but it seems that discussion is still continuing on The Houses of Healing. It seems that people have gotten into the habit of taking two weeks per chapter.

As I said, part of me wants to get to the end, but another part of me is feeling 'pressured'. If we are to take in the Appendices as well, & do them justice, it seems to me that we would have to devote at least a month to Appendix A, so will we have time to do everything by the end of the year? Does everyone want to finish by the end of this year? If we divided App. A up into

1 Numenorean Kings & Eriador, Arnor & the Heirs of Isildur
2 Gondor & the Heirs of Anarion
3 Aragorn & Arwen
4 The House of Eorl & Durin's Folk

Then did App B & C together (along with the unpublished Epilogue to LotR from vol 9 of HoMe if anyone wants to).

& finally App F (just because I can't see much mileage in Apps D&E) we're talking either 17 or 32 weeks depending on whether we take one or two weeks. The two week option would mean finishing around the end of April next year.

Opinions?

Personally, I feel 'torn in two'....

[Lalwendë]

I reckon a slow down to a two week pattern would be good, at least for the present. It seems a lot of members are starting new terms at school/college and this might understandably be taking up a lot of time. But if we go back to two weeks and then return to weekly threads, would this make the 'pattern' on CbC confused?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I would hesitate to change and slow down to every two weeks again - during the summer months, experience showed that there wasn't much more posting on a slower schedule. However, I do realize that the Appendices may take longer than I'd reckoned, and I am planning a holiday break at the end of the year - at least three weeks, I should imagine.

I'm actually pleased that people are still posting on previous threads - it shows that they care about those chapters and have something they want to say about them.

[Aiwendil]

I must apologize for the the fact that the chapter 14 discussion is not open yet; I'm away and with only intermittent access both to the books and the internet. Judging by the level of participation lately, this will not be an inconvenience to anyone. I will start the next discussion as soon as possible; in the interim, if anyone feels an urge to discuss the Silmarillion, the chapter 13 thread is of course (gapingly) open.

Edit: Hmm, four consecutive posts in this thread of rather poor excuses on my part for being late. I really am sorry for my failure in this regard, especially if this is part of the reason for the discussions' general silence.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Don't blame yourself for the slow discussion, Aiwendil - I found out in the LotR and Hobbit discussions that the interest is always greatest at the beginning, then slows down radically. Thanks for your faithfulness in keeping going!

[Aiwendil]

If you're wondering, no, I haven't forgotten about the Silmarillion discussion. Given the slow pace of the discussions, I've been a bit more relaxed about the schedule - but the next chapter will be up soon.

[Aiwendil]

Ditto my above post.

If anyone is unhappy with these threads continuing to appear at a slow rate, some stern words would probably rouse me to greater diligence. Given the lack of interest, I've assumed no one is irked by the irregularity - if I'm wrong, please let me know!

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

I'm still hanging in there, just not posting on the threads. Unfortunately, I have read ahead a bit while waiting, so that it is increasingly difficult to comment on most the current threads available. Those topics have a nasty way of getting filed away in the lowest drawer of my mental filing cabinet, and using some strange and cryptic system that is beyond me...well maybe just a bit anyway!

[Aiwendil]

Thanks for the feedback, Hilde. I'll be more conscientious about getting the chapters up in the future.