Is there honestly much left? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Diamond18 · 06-07-2004, 11:27 PM

Interesting question. I've actually been reading this thread for a while, but haven't posted yet since I have not visited the discussion forums in months (I post in Esty's RPG when I have ideas, check out what's going on here so I'm not totally clueless, and that's about it). So I've suspected that most people will just jump up to give me a lecture on never saying that there's nothing left to wonder. Personally, my only reply to that is that while life and the world contains infinite things to discover and discuss -- Tolkien doesn't, and to imply that his works are truly limitless is to think he somehow achieved full God-like creator powers.

He is a man who wrote an amazing legendarium, which will still never compare to the wealth of ancient mythos from around the world and all the different fictional works of the modern era when taken as a whole, which in turn will never compare to the ever changing mysteries of non-fiction a.k.a. real life. There is a good reason there's a cliché that says "variety is the spice of life", which is why I'm very reluctant to agree with those who say you can never devote too much thought to the Professor. As a collective site, maybe not, but for each individual member, I think there is a limit. Some have a much more voracious appetite than others, but still.

I'm not as interested in delving into it as I once was. But that is purely a personal change of inclination. The Barrow Downs will keep getting new members who are fresh and excited about Tolkien (as has been said by others in this thread) and so as long as they're discovering new things about his works there will be things to discuss here. Maybe somewhere at some time they have been discussed already, but not by the same minds, and that is what should matter. So I see the whole issue of there "not being much left", as applying more accurately to personal feeling -- for some people (and I happen to be one) there is a point you reach where you realize that you don't want to know anything more about Tolkien, not because you think you know everything (I haven't even read HoME) but because you want instead to learn about something else entirely. I only have so much time in the day and so much head space to use.

I mainly devote my computer time to my original writing and writers' group, and my writing is far more inspired by other authors whose works are "off topic" here, so hence the lessening interest in dissecting Tolkien as time goes on. All strictly personal views and reasons.

So I see what Imladris means about expanding. But I don't really see that happening to this site: it is a Tolkien site, and as such is inherently limited to a very narrow list of subjects. It would have to change its very nature to "expand" into something that no one will ever tire of or feel has been personally exhausted. And why should it change? The fact that some members drift away is the nature of the beast, and there is no shame is lessening interest. That will happen whenever you narrow something down to a certain subject, even if it's a broad or deep one. There will always be a point where you get "off topic", and that can feel stifling when you start to discover different things you're excited about. So you would have to remain really into Tolkien to be able to keep finding original things to discuss about him, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year. Some members will return after a time, some won't, but the BD doesn't need to change to compensate since it gets reborn with every new batch of eager minds. Things would be much different if it was a small site with a mostly unvarying base of members. Then I think it would have to change with those people to stay alive. As it is, there are other sites and other forums for discussing other things, much as it may be painful to be a Newbie somewhere all over again. But such is life.

I'm not sure why I wrote that dissertation on a subject that's been well discussed (ha, déjà vu!) except that I've always been fascinated by the nature of growth and change, in people, places, etc. When is it good and healthy to move on or alter your purpose, and when should you stick to what you've been doing or believing? Perhaps that's too broad a question though, as it's practically the same thing as the debate between fundamentalism and liberalism. So to put it a different way, what is the difference between a fad you shake your head at later, and something that, while you may not always be as deeply engrossed in, you will still count as time well spent and a valuable learning experience? I know I stated one difference in the phrases "shake head at later" and "valuable learning experience", but both of those still have lasting impact on your memory, so there's probably less difference than you'd think.

Imladris · 06-08-2004, 12:10 AM

Just because I want to be difficult --

The BDs wouldn't change hardly at all if they studied the mythos that Tokien himself studied. It would still be a Tolkie site -- not a LotR site. It'd be like it was just going deeper into what Tolkien himself did...if that makes sense...

Quote:

Tolkien doesn't, and to imply that his works are truly limitless is to think he somehow achieved full God-like creator powers. He is a man who wrote an amazing legendarium, which will still never compare to the wealth of ancient mythos from around the world and all the different fictional works of the modern era when taken as a whole, which in turn will never compare to the ever changing mysteries of non-fiction a.k.a. real life.

Ditto ditto ditto to infinity!

Cheers,
Imladris

Diamond18 · 06-08-2004, 01:57 PM

Quote:

The BDs wouldn't change hardly at all if they studied the mythos that Tokien himself studied. It would still be a Tolkie site -- not a LotR site. It'd be like it was just going deeper into what Tolkien himself did...if that makes sense...

Good point. Have you read or seen this (fairly new) book out called Tales Before Tolkien: The Roots of Modern Fantasy ? It's a little different kind of LotR related book than most of hte ones out there, featuring stories that supposedly inspired Tolkien. Once upon a time I got it from the library thinking I'd read them all and then post up a spiffy BD thread discussing the various stories and their possible impact on different aspects of his writings .... but I never actually got around to reading the book. So I'm not even sure what basis the claim that those are stories which inspired Tolkien is founded on. A heh heh heh.... These day I seem to be full of clever intentions that never actually come to fruition.

Rimbaud · 07-15-2004, 09:23 AM

This is really questioning most of academia, particularly the literary side. Not that the field should be bereft of question and left unchallenged by any means, but the question is perhaps broader than suspected.

For example, certain authors have been studied for thousands of years (some by JRRT himself). Others for several hundred years - and some chap from Stratford-upon-Avon is a good example of this. You may imagine that several million people studying the Bard for a over three hundred years might deaden the field a little, but far from it. Try asking a full-time Shakespeare-scholar (I know a couple) that there is little left to say, and they will smile at you, perhaps affectionately, but with a certain tiredness and a glint in the eye that speaks of a long conversation to come...

Not to compare Professor and Bard directly, mind, but if the text still has an effect on people (I removed the word 'profound' from that clause, but I'll hear argument), then there will still be much to discuss.

I'll take this argument to a somewhat long-winded but logical end-point: so long as people are unique and have unique reactions to events and stimuli, including literature, then discussion of those matters shall continue; from the mundane to the sublime. The key ancillary to this is, of course, that we must invest much in the education of each generation so that at least such discourse is fruitful.

Rimsky

Lhunardawen · 08-27-2004, 05:26 AM

I'm reviving this thread due to an observation of mine in The Books subforum. Whether I am merely hallucinating or someone has noticed this as well, I would like to hear your opinions.

I noticed that The Books has not been as active as it used to be since the Chapter-by-Chapter started. Don't get me wrong, I love posting there and I believe it is a great addition to the forum. But does this mean that most of the things we would like to discuss regarding the books are being, or will be, discussed there? Or is our worst nightmare of the lack of things to talk about finally coming true?

Or maybe it's just my vision problems...

Estelyn Telcontar · 08-27-2004, 06:03 AM

Lhunardawen, as I see it, the Books forum had slowed down considerably before the CbC sub-forum opened. That is due to many factors - no more movies to anticipate, so we've had much less traffic in the last few months; real life, which always gets in the way of online presence at some time, so that some formerly active posters have less time here; and the simple fact that there have been so many discussions already that it's difficult to find a fresh topic or point-of-view. Since the Chapter-by-Chapter sub-forum opened, it drew people back into discussions and sparked some branches that grew new leaves (= threads) on Books.

The slowing down you've observed came first, not as a result of the CbC discussions.

Lhunardawen · 08-27-2004, 06:12 AM

I see your point, Esty. I was just quite...well...disappointed by the absence of threads as active as the Canon thread used to be. It was just a new thing for me not to see even a single thread with a brightly glowing "fireball" next to it, if you know what I mean.

By the way, I did notice that there are less and less posts in the CbC threads as the subforum advances. And these are supposed to be the more interesting chapters (at least for me)!

06-07-2004, 11:27 PM	#1
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Let's get ready to ramble... Interesting question. I've actually been reading this thread for a while, but haven't posted yet since I have not visited the discussion forums in months (I post in Esty's RPG when I have ideas, check out what's going on here so I'm not totally clueless, and that's about it). So I've suspected that most people will just jump up to give me a lecture on never saying that there's nothing left to wonder. Personally, my only reply to that is that while life and the world contains infinite things to discover and discuss -- Tolkien doesn't, and to imply that his works are truly limitless is to think he somehow achieved full God-like creator powers. He is a man who wrote an amazing legendarium, which will still never compare to the wealth of ancient mythos from around the world and all the different fictional works of the modern era when taken as a whole, which in turn will never compare to the ever changing mysteries of non-fiction a.k.a. real life. There is a good reason there's a cliché that says "variety is the spice of life", which is why I'm very reluctant to agree with those who say you can never devote too much thought to the Professor. As a collective site, maybe not, but for each individual member, I think there is a limit. Some have a much more voracious appetite than others, but still. I'm not as interested in delving into it as I once was. But that is purely a personal change of inclination. The Barrow Downs will keep getting new members who are fresh and excited about Tolkien (as has been said by others in this thread) and so as long as they're discovering new things about his works there will be things to discuss here. Maybe somewhere at some time they have been discussed already, but not by the same minds, and that is what should matter. So I see the whole issue of there "not being much left", as applying more accurately to personal feeling -- for some people (and I happen to be one) there is a point you reach where you realize that you don't want to know anything more about Tolkien, not because you think you know everything (I haven't even read HoME) but because you want instead to learn about something else entirely. I only have so much time in the day and so much head space to use. I mainly devote my computer time to my original writing and writers' group, and my writing is far more inspired by other authors whose works are "off topic" here, so hence the lessening interest in dissecting Tolkien as time goes on. All strictly personal views and reasons. So I see what Imladris means about expanding. But I don't really see that happening to this site: it is a Tolkien site, and as such is inherently limited to a very narrow list of subjects. It would have to change its very nature to "expand" into something that no one will ever tire of or feel has been personally exhausted. And why should it change? The fact that some members drift away is the nature of the beast, and there is no shame is lessening interest. That will happen whenever you narrow something down to a certain subject, even if it's a broad or deep one. There will always be a point where you get "off topic", and that can feel stifling when you start to discover different things you're excited about. So you would have to remain really into Tolkien to be able to keep finding original things to discuss about him, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year. Some members will return after a time, some won't, but the BD doesn't need to change to compensate since it gets reborn with every new batch of eager minds. Things would be much different if it was a small site with a mostly unvarying base of members. Then I think it would have to change with those people to stay alive. As it is, there are other sites and other forums for discussing other things, much as it may be painful to be a Newbie somewhere all over again. But such is life. I'm not sure why I wrote that dissertation on a subject that's been well discussed (ha, déjà vu!) except that I've always been fascinated by the nature of growth and change, in people, places, etc. When is it good and healthy to move on or alter your purpose, and when should you stick to what you've been doing or believing? Perhaps that's too broad a question though, as it's practically the same thing as the debate between fundamentalism and liberalism. So to put it a different way, what is the difference between a fad you shake your head at later, and something that, while you may not always be as deeply engrossed in, you will still count as time well spent and a valuable learning experience? I know I stated one difference in the phrases "shake head at later" and "valuable learning experience", but both of those still have lasting impact on your memory, so there's probably less difference than you'd think. __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

07-15-2004, 09:23 AM	#4
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,062	On the orginal question... This is really questioning most of academia, particularly the literary side. Not that the field should be bereft of question and left unchallenged by any means, but the question is perhaps broader than suspected. For example, certain authors have been studied for thousands of years (some by JRRT himself). Others for several hundred years - and some chap from Stratford-upon-Avon is a good example of this. You may imagine that several million people studying the Bard for a over three hundred years might deaden the field a little, but far from it. Try asking a full-time Shakespeare-scholar (I know a couple) that there is little left to say, and they will smile at you, perhaps affectionately, but with a certain tiredness and a glint in the eye that speaks of a long conversation to come... Not to compare Professor and Bard directly, mind, but if the text still has an effect on people (I removed the word 'profound' from that clause, but I'll hear argument), then there will still be much to discuss. I'll take this argument to a somewhat long-winded but logical end-point: so long as people are unique and have unique reactions to events and stimuli, including literature, then discussion of those matters shall continue; from the mundane to the sublime. The key ancillary to this is, of course, that we must invest much in the education of each generation so that at least such discourse is fruitful. Rimsky __________________ And all the rest is literature

08-27-2004, 05:26 AM	#5
Lhunardawen Hauntress of the Havens Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IN it, but not OF it Posts: 2,538	I'm reviving this thread due to an observation of mine in The Books subforum. Whether I am merely hallucinating or someone has noticed this as well, I would like to hear your opinions. I noticed that The Books has not been as active as it used to be since the Chapter-by-Chapter started. Don't get me wrong, I love posting there and I believe it is a great addition to the forum. But does this mean that most of the things we would like to discuss regarding the books are being, or will be, discussed there? Or is our worst nightmare of the lack of things to talk about finally coming true? Or maybe it's just my vision problems... Last edited by Lhunardawen; 08-27-2004 at 05:29 AM. Reason: nothing...

08-27-2004, 06:03 AM	#6
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Lhunardawen, as I see it, the Books forum had slowed down considerably before the CbC sub-forum opened. That is due to many factors - no more movies to anticipate, so we've had much less traffic in the last few months; real life, which always gets in the way of online presence at some time, so that some formerly active posters have less time here; and the simple fact that there have been so many discussions already that it's difficult to find a fresh topic or point-of-view. Since the Chapter-by-Chapter sub-forum opened, it drew people back into discussions and sparked some branches that grew new leaves (= threads) on Books. The slowing down you've observed came first, not as a result of the CbC discussions. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

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08-27-2004, 06:12 AM	#7
Lhunardawen Hauntress of the Havens Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IN it, but not OF it Posts: 2,538	I see your point, Esty. I was just quite...well...disappointed by the absence of threads as active as the Canon thread used to be. It was just a new thing for me not to see even a single thread with a brightly glowing "fireball" next to it, if you know what I mean. By the way, I did notice that there are less and less posts in the CbC threads as the subforum advances. And these are supposed to be the more interesting chapters (at least for me)!