LotR Reading Club

[Mister Underhill]

Know ye that it has been determined and decided this third day of June, the year of our Lord two thousand and four, that a New Sub-Forum shall be Established for the Organization of the sixty-odd Threads that shall Comprise the Chapter-by-Chapter Discussion.

I'll do this soon. A moderator-to-be-named-later will be responsible for starting each new topic. I'm considering stickying each topic so that they will fall in proper order rather than being all jumbled up. The downside of that organization would be that finding newer posts might be more difficult. Thoughts and suggestions?

Your "chunk" idea is good Fordim, but there's something attractive too about sticking to the chapter-by-chapter discussion structure. Maybe we can take the spirit of your idea and apply it to said structure. That is, perhaps we can take a more flexible approach: say, no more than one week between chapters, but if discussion starts to look played out on any one chapter, someone can make the call and the group can move on to the next ahead of schedule. There are pros and cons here, too. If you don't have a set schedule, then you'll have to allow people time to actually read once you've made the call to move on.

My concern with the chapter a week pace is that discussion will go on for over a year. It's hard to keep any core group committed and focused for such a length of time. There's also the consideration that by the time you get to the end of the book, the beginning will seem a distant memory. The book isn't meant to be read at such a slow pace.

Here endeth the Administrative Notes.

[Lyta_Underhill]

When we did this on a mailing list (a bit different structure than the 'Downs), there was a signup list for all the chapters, and each member could sign up for an individual chapter or chapters. Then the person who chose the particular chapter would start the discussion with a long summary and then points of analysis/interest and then his or her favorite passages. Then the chapter was open for discussion. I don't know if this method would work here, but who knows? That would spread the responsibility for opening discussion on the individual chapters between many members. And I'm sure everyone has his or her favorite chapters in mind for in-depth discussion! It might yield some great treatises, not that there is ever a lack of those here!

Cheers,
Lyta

[mark12_30]

Chunks vice chapters... nobody has brought up number of pages yet, for which I'm glad.

Thinking the chunks idea over; if we defined chunks as sets of chapters, and gave free rein within the chunk-- Shire to Buckland... Old Forest to Bree... Chetwood to Weathertop. (You have walked 257.3 miles... nevermind.) People will still fall behind, though, and some will sail west in a month. How long per chunk? A week? Two weeks? Who defines the chunks?

I do think that the threads-by-chapter idea is most natural. Mister Underhill: I think recent posts will still show up (even if stickied) in reverse-chrono order under "Active Topics"-- true? Would the threads be stickied in Ascending or Descending order?

I'm not so sure that a chapter discussion will EVER close. I can't picture chapter discussions landing in Haudh-En-Ndengin? That's why I'm not so worried about tightly pacing the group. Stragglers will be under no penalty of any kind, and will (actually) benefit from everyone else's observations if they read the chapter-thread BEFORE the chapter.

Lyta-- treatise, thesis... I daydream about taking (or giving!) classes in LOTR, this is as close as I've come yet. Glee!

[mark12_30]

Mister Underhill, looking at The Shire-- to me it looks like Pio's stickies are still sorted by last post. The stickys are sorted at the top, and then the unstickied threads are sorted below them. So if you stickied them ALL, they'd still sort by last post?

Right now Resrources for RPGs thread is at the top-- but it's a year old, and there are others created since; it's just the one with the most recent post in it.

EDIT:

In order threads: The threads within a sub-forum can be sorted by title by clicking on the header "Thread". (Ascending or descending.) As long as the naming of the threads follows a sorting-oriented convention, the threads can be put in order by name, or most recent. Quotes and strange symbols seem to sabotage the sort order though.

[Mister Underhill]

Yeah, the sticky idea was not a good one, especially in light of members' ability to sort the threads to their own liking -- thanks for pointing that out! We might consider stickying the "current chapter", but these are niggling little details compared to larger questions like pace.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Take a look at the top of the Books forum main page, people - Mister Underhill has set up a brand spanking new sub-forum for this series of discussions! *Applause, applause, applause!!! Kudos to Fordim for getting the wheels turning for this project; it promises to generate very interesting posts!

Background planning continues; as soon as everything's ready to go, we'll let you all know.

[mark12_30]

Rah-Hoom-Rah!!!

[The Saucepan Man]

While flexibility is key, I think that we should devote at least a week to each chapter, whatever the length of the chapter. Although the chapters themselves will not take long to read, the process of reviewing the comments made by others, posting your own and then responding to subsequent posts where necessary will take up quite a bit of time, especially with real life to contend with too. Also, if we all post our thoughts within a day or so of reading and then move on to the next chapter, it will be difficult to get a discussion going on any one chapter (in the sense of responding to and developing issues raised by others). And personally I would prefer to concentrate on one chapter at a time rather than be flitting between multiple chapter discussions (again given time constraints imposed in the real world).

Mister U, I take your point about the length of time that this will take. You are quite right that the book was not meant to be read at such a slow pace. But I don't see that this necessarily needs to be a problem. We have all read the book at least once before (and most have read it many times before), so we have a good idea of where each chapter falls in the general scheme of things. In addition, there is nothing to stop people reading ahead if they want to and then going back to re-read the specific chapter coming up for discussion.

Maybe its just because I am someone who takes a long time to formulate posts of any length and substance, but I do think that we will get a better discussion going if we concentrate on each chapter individually and allow everyone time to collect their thoughts and react to what others are posting. That does not preclude flexibility, but an underlying structure of one week per chapter (and longer for the longer chapters) seems good to me. There will of course be some overlap in any event as the discussion on previous chapters continues, but this shouldn't be allowed to constrain the development of the discussion on the current chapter.

As for the idea of "blocks", I would again prefer to stick to individual chapters, although I am sure that ideas will carry across from one thread to the next as recurring themes and ideas developed from one chapter to the next come under discussion.

Finally, I was quite enthusiastic about sticky threads when the idea was first raised, but I can see the problems. Still, it would be quite nice to have the option of putting the threads into chapter order. Is there any way that this can be done while still having the option to have the chapter currently under discussion at the top?

[mark12_30]

Saucie, Yes. You can sort on the header called "Thread"--It's yellow; it's a link-- at the top in a forum (any forum or subforum.) You can sort in Ascending or Descending order.

All those headings are links; so you can (for instance) find the thread with the most replies, or the most views; or the least... etc. Usually the lists are linmited by the posts for thelast week unless you go to the bottom and edit your options.

[Maédhros]

I'll do this soon. A moderator-to-be-named-later will be responsible for starting each new topic. I'm considering stickying each topic so that they will fall in proper order rather than being all jumbled up. The downside of that organization would be that finding newer posts might be more difficult. Thoughts and suggestions?

My concern with the chapter a week pace is that discussion will go on for over a year. It's hard to keep any core group committed and focused for such a length of time. There's also the consideration that by the time you get to the end of the book, the beginning will seem a distant memory. The book isn't meant to be read at such a slow pace.

I think that the discussion of LOTR is a great idea, but I have to disagree with having a moderator responsible for starting each new topic. I have experience with this because in another forum I started a Published Silmarillion discussion chapter by chapter and we assigned a different person the responsability of doing the intro of each chapter. I think that this approach offers a better display of ideas and point of views than say a single person doing that for each chapter, and also that the work is inmense, also it would make the persons more involved because they would have to research in order to make good intros into the discussion in the chapters.
I would not be adverse of the idea of having a single person posting the initial post of a chapter, provided that it is done by different persons so as to assure the quality of the intro.

On the time problem for the discussion. While it is certainly very difficult to maintain for a long period of time, it is not impossible either. For example, I posted the Ainulindalë chapter in Nov 11 of 2002, and we as of today are nearly finishing discussing the Eärendil chapter and after that there is still the Akallabêth and Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.
My point is that it not only can be done, but it has been done.

Here is the link: The Silmarillion Project

[The Saucepan Man]

It's already there, Saucie. Go to the Forum-- for instance, "Books". Check out all these links -- these headings all along the top, in yellow font.

But that still wouldn't allow one to order the threads by chapter - unless, that is, we preface each thread/chapter title with an alphabetical reference. So, the thread titles for Book One chapters would be: "1A. A Long-expected Party". "1B. The Shadow of the Past" etc. Book Two chapters would be titled: "2A. Many Meetings", "2B. The Council of Elrond" etc. I am assuming that numbers take precedence over letters, but if not it would be the other way round. In any event, that would allow us to order the threads by chapter in the sub-forum if we wanted too.

Sorry, I know that this is getting into the detail, but I'm a sucker for detail.

[mark12_30]

Ah. Having seen in Mister Underhill's public profile "Interests: Wipes vs. dissolves; Occupation: Workin' man ", that he was referring to graphics-coding rather than clorox and comet... Mister Underhill, if I have mistakenly accused you of being an UberGeek you may freely vent your wrath.

Otherwise I expect/assume that the book number and zero-padded chapter numbers will precede the chapter text-string-names. As in:

B1Ch01_AnUnexpectedParty
B1Ch02_ShadowOfThePast
...etc.

[The Saucepan Man]

Yes, that looks sensible, Helen.

While I agree with allocating responsibility for the first post on each chapter to different people (not necessarily mods, though ), I don't think that anyone should be expected to write an essay. People can, of course, if they want to. But, if not, a summary of the major themes and issues which occur to them should suffice to get things rolling. Subsequent posters will be free to raise additional matters, of course.

[Mister Underhill]

Quick thoughts:

Maédhros: Point taken. I venture to say that the TftE crew is unusually dedicated, though. If the idea here is to involve a broad cross-section of Downers, then a narrower time frame seems more likely to succeed. But hey, if I'm the only one worried, I'm certainly not going to make a federal case out of it. Besides, there's probably not much difference between eight months and a year and change. If pacing it out to cover, say, the summer seems too fast, then you may as well go whole hog and do a chapter per week.

M and Lyta: Topic starting. A couple of things. Do we really need a summary? After all, posters presumably all just read the chapter. That's the point, right? Plus we have detailed chapter summaries available for linking (or even cutting-and-pasting, for that matter) on the Downs proper. As far as preparing an essay-form analysis/introduction of discussion points... I wasn't anticipating anything of this sort. I side with the posters who advocate maximum flexibility in the actual discussion structure. My idea was that the moderator would pretty much create the thread without necessarily creating expansive introductory comments and discussion would simply begin, with posters taking the lead in any given chapter as opportunity and inspiration allowed, rather than as assigned work. This approach also guards against dropout and burnout and missed deadlines. I can be convinced otherwise, though.

Saucepan and mark12_30: Yes, I had anticipated a standard thread-naming convention (another reason to have one person starting all the threads). Maybe not so "computerese" as your examples, Helen, but something similar. The zero-padding is a good point. So - "Book I - Chapter 01 - A Long-Expected Party" and so on. "Wipes vs. dissolves" refers to filmic transitions. Ugh -- my mask is slipping!

Oh, and P.S. -- Lyta, it's awesome that you have a sig from "Pale Rider". Eastwood RULES.

P.P.S. -- Cross-posting with SPM -- agreed re: essay writing.

[Maédhros]

I venture to say that the TftE crew is unusually dedicated, though. If the idea here is to involve a broad cross-section of Downers, then a narrower time frame seems more likely to succeed. But hey, if I'm the only one worried, I'm certainly not going to make a federal case out of it. Besides, there's probably not much difference between eight months and a year and change. If pacing it out to cover, say, the summer seems too fast, then you may as well go whole hog and do a chapter per week.

The narrower time frame seems more likely to succeed, but the main difference between here and that other forum is that there are more members in this forum than in that where the Silmarillion Discussion is taking place. There is an advantage in having a more long discussion time is that it gives more people the opportunity to contribute while the discussion is taking place. So there are pros and cons in there.

Topic starting. A couple of things. Do we really need a summary? After all, posters presumably all just read the chapter. That's the point, right? Plus we have detailed chapter summaries available for linking (or even cutting-and-pasting, for that matter) on the Downs proper. As far as preparing an essay-form analysis/introduction of discussion points... I wasn't anticipating anything of this sort. I side with the posters who advocate maximum flexibility in the actual discussion structure. My idea was that the moderator would pretty much create the thread without necessarily creating expansive introductory comments and discussion would simply begin, with posters taking the lead in any given chapter as opportunity and inspiration allowed, rather than as assigned work. This approach also guards against dropout and burnout and missed deadlines. I can be convinced otherwise, though.

I don't see a contradicion with having an analysis/intro with having maximum flexibility in the discussion. The intro is just an intro, anyone can post their questions/ideas. The idea for the intro is to set a base for the discussion, the different posters can provide their own insight in the chapters.
Another point is that having people doing the intros hopefully will make those persons work harder to try and come up with better ideas/thoughts that can deepen the discussion.
As for the deadlines/dropout and missed deadlines, well it might happen but hey, in our works and life we have deadlines that we have to deal with and it is Tolkien and it is supposed to be fun. Any member can take the intro if another doesn't have the time or a problem in making it.

[Mister Underhill]

Intros/essays. The more I think about it, the less I like it because it adds a whole layer of management. Someone would have to create a sign-up for chapter intros, then assign them, then have to follow-up on getting them from the assigned person or reassigning them if a person dropped out or ran late or...

I think you catch my drift. We don't need those kind of headaches. The Downs has a longstanding tradition of intelligent, relatively unmoderated discussion which I think will work just fine for this project.

[Evisse the Blue]

But late is better than never - I see you still have some administrative issues to discuss before the fun starts. Following Child's advice I will try to join in as often as I can. (with the mention that I've never participated in such a read-along before, so I'm looking forward to my first). So, you can count me in too.

[Lyta_Underhill]

I think that this approach offers a better display of ideas and point of views than say a single person doing that for each chapter, and also that the work is inmense, also it would make the persons more involved because they would have to research in order to make good intros into the discussion in the chapters.

Maedhros' example is about how my thoughts run as well. I agree completely about having a different person intro each chapter, or at least spacing out the chapters introduced by the same person. The structure of the intro post for each chapter in my experience was more a summary, then analysis, then favorite parts, but I also like Maedhros' structure of adding the burning questions posed by the particular passages. The thing that distinguished the initial poster of each chapter was that their summary, etc. followed a pre-determined structure, but the content was determined by the material. The following posts could address any point in the first post or go off on any question posed at any time by a subsequent poster on the chapter's points, or bring up new points not explored by the initial poster. I think it worked pretty well, however, it did take over a week for each new person to prepare his or her initial post, as it did take more or less an essay form and was well thought out. For this reason, I think it would be better to assign a different initial poster on each chapter, just for the sake of speed, so the entire forum is not waiting on one poor overworked moderator to come up with the next chapter's intro. Just my thoughts.

Cheers!
Lyta