Was Eru a Sadist?

[Lhunardawen]

I've just watched the movie "Troy" based on Homer's The Iliad, and Greek mythology entered my mind. The Greek gods and godesses are probably the perfect examples of sadistic deities. They just stand by and look down, watching people kill themselves, or sometimes joining in the fun (the way Hera, Helena, and Aphrodite indirectly caused the Trojan War as they fought over the golden apple in Paris' hands). Eru is absolutely not like that.

[Bombadil]

For those not familiar with what Lhunardawen is talking about, actually reading the Iliad is your best bet. The movie seldom talks about the Gods which are so prevalent in the poem.

But yes, great point. In that particular mythology the Gods are (with do doubt in my mind) if not sadistic, very wrathful.

Perhaps it would be safer to continue this thread by comparing (and contrasting) the Gods of other Mythology, such as Greek, to Iluvatar. Maybe finding certain qualities of Eru that wouldn't classify him as a sadist, but rather ones that remain mere qualities.

[HerenIstarion]

I doubt it is correct to compare Eru with gods of Greek mythology. Those latter bear more likeliness to Valar than Eru Himself, who's proper peers in our world should rather be Holy Trinity, Jehovah and Allah, i.e., Gods of explicitly monotheistic religions with equally explicit strong personalities (so, IMO, Buddhism should be excluded)

[mark12_30]

Free Will was a big risk, but having once made the commitment, there it is.

If I were to pick a "sadist" I'd pick Melkor.

[The Saucepan Man]

Free Will was a big risk, but having once made the commitment, there it is.

Yes, but then again what option did Eru have if he wanted to create Children that were worth creating? As a father, I would rather have children capable of independent thought than mere automatons, even if it means that sometimes (well, often actually ) they do things that I don't like.

[Evisse the Blue]

As Saucepan man suggested, I’ll stick with judging Eru from what we can gather from the books.
Re: Galadriel’s mirror: The remarks about the mirror always intrigued me, reminding me of the modern horoscope predictions. Watch this: the mirror shows: ‘things that were, things that are, things that yet may be’, ‘what they desire to see, as well as things unbidden’, ‘some never come to be’. This pretty much covers all there is, doesn’t it? Anything is possible! It’s as if Eru wants to play upon their creatures’ need and desire for knowing the future by offering them…absolutely nothing at all, that is, even more uncertainty. Unless of course you’re Galadriel, and have the gift of interpreting correctly what you see.
But given Frodo and Sam’s situation, they do see the future, and the future looks bleak. And herein comes Eru’s greatness: by his grace, they are not shown the outcome of their success (Aragorn coronation, everyone singing in their praise, etc), but the worst of what is to come. The matter of choice is clearly laid before them: This is what will happen. ‘Would you still do the right things even if you are reinforced for doing the wrong thing?’ (sorry for the psych terms). So, consequently, they are both tempted to turn back: Frodo sees the personification of his terror, an image that will come back to haunt him again and again, and he momentarily wavers; Sam sees the scouring of the Shire and immediately wants to go home. I am reminded here of Bethberry’s mention that ‘Satan’, as it were, is sometimes a ‘messenger’ of God. But in the end it all proves for the best. In choosing to go on, Frodo and Sam harden their wills against the worst instead of foolishly hoping for the best (hope here used as ‘looking up’ not the higher ‘Estel - trust’).

Re: Clash and Schism causing both discord and marvellous beauty – Now here is an idea that I like…it it esthetically pleasing to my mind, but one can argue against it.
Also one can argue the idea of evil and suffering as necessary. With the risk of straying a bit from Tolkien, I’m reminded of Ivan’ ‘profession of unfaith’ – so to speak (in Dostoievsky’s Brother’s Karamazov): At the very end, when God’s majesty and wisdom is revealed, and the lamb shall sit with the lion and the victim shall embrace his assasin, therefore all sufferance will be found to have a higher meaning, Ivan will understand, but not forgive, and he will still hate God. Because all the benediction that is to come –still a promise of benediction and transcendance – will not be enough to pay for the tears of a single suffering child.
Yeah, there are those of us who will believe that…and as someone said, it’s a matter of opinion.

OT: WARNING SPOILERS: As for Troy - eh...how can you learn anything of the gods and men as gods' puppets from that movie?? The movie does not even show the gods, the beauty contest which is the true reason for the Trojan War is inexistent, and...in a nutshell it's just a war from the history of Ancient Greece. All the magic is gone. Yeah, read the book, rather.

[HerenIstarion]

I was brought here by series of cross-links in my own posts and thought I may as well bring it back up. After all, I gambled at the thread to last for eleven pages, and it barely reached the end of its first. Let's give it a fresh start, than...