‘Canonicity’: the Book or the Reader?

[mark12_30]

Aiwendil

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

So the thread comes to the point where arguments must take the form of parables. I will not waste my time demanding better definitions for the terms being used or trying to make literal the arguments. I will simply ask two questions.

"Must?" I am unaware that (a) I issued any orders (besides "look or don't look" ) or that (b) I would have any *authority* to hijack this thread by doing so. Per forum rules, the thread belongs to Fordim, and he may step in with the gavel (or axe) of his choice and and provide Thread Guidance at any time.

1. Is everyone sure that an end is not being confused with a means? Think about the sort of relation that obtains between applicability, eucatastrophe, etc. and a good story.

Actually, I think the whole process is rather cyclical in nature.

2. If "Truth" means, as I guessed before, something like "God", "heaven", "the divine plan"...

If we insist on strict definitions, now I have to ask you your definitions of those three concepts, as I suspect that they vary widely from mine! And won't that derail this thread!

However, I will (for the sake of peace, which I like, and argument, which I would far rather avoid) state that when I use the word Truth, with a capital T, I refer-- loosely-- to all that is true in a permanent sense. And that both encompasses those three concepts that you listed above

"God", "heaven", "the divine plan"

and extends beyond them into such simple things that include "Trees are more than a source of plywood and paper", "2+2=4", "The Sky is a big place," and "Most people prefer receiving kindness over cruelty." However, one can also argue that these simple truths (trees, sky, arithmetic, kindness) are also part of the Divine Plan and reveal something about the Heart of God. And one can also argue that discovering That is part of the journey into Truth. (So I have been steadfastly dodging this question for several pages now. And now I am going to start dodging it again, before someone down-rates me again for being Too Biblical.)

So: To simplify again, I'll go back to the spirit of "good is good" and say, "Truth is that which is always, eternally, true." And yes, you can blow philosophical holes in that with a 20-gauge. Enjoy.

and if a glimpse of this Truth is a critical part of your theory, where does that leave non-religious readers (like me)?

When pursued, Truth leads to Truth. I think the more relevant question is what are you pursuing? And that is entirely up to you. Free country.


Saucie

The real issue for me is that this simply does not happen for millions of his readers. Indeed, I am willing to bet that the majority of people who have read and enjoyed the Hobbit and LotR (certainly in the UK) have not glimpsed this “Truth” that Tolkien believed in and was trying to show them.

Interesting, Saucie; I have the exact opposite impression. I see fangirls sucked into fandom because Orlie is cute, and then before they know it, choosing to resist peer pressure because "I didn't think Aragorn would do drugs." In fact, I knew a sixteen-year-old girl whose firm decision to remain chaste til marriage (which came twelve years later!) was based on the sudden realization that "That's what Strider and Arwen would do." People look at Sam and Frodo, Gimli and Legolas, Eomer and Aragorn, and see the vaue of True Friendship. People look at Legolas and see the value of Loyalty. Etcetera, etcetera. Even Dominic Moynahan has started a "Save the Trees" program and is raising funds for it. Everywhere I look (well, almost) among LOTR fans, I see people who have been called higher. Some climb a little. Some climb a lot. Most do feel that tug.

So-- in answer to your question, "What would Tolkien say today?" I think he would look at the worldwide phenomenon that his books have started, and see the resultant changes-- large and small-- in people's lives, and turn to his TCBS fellows and say, "By golly, lads, it's happening. The love of real & true beauty, sanity, and cleanliness is being re-established. Appreciation for the glory of beauty & order & joyful contentment is growing. People want these things again. THey get onto their computers and talk about them at all hours, and then they try it later. THeir hearts are changing. They redecorate their silly rooms with elvish motifs, and in doing so, resolve to be kinder, and more gracious, and appreciate the stars more. They learn elvish, and in doing so learn the value of the spoken word. They flag at work, and think, 'Be like Frodo and just keep going.' They grow flowers, and wonder at their beauty, all because of elanor and niphredil. They learn to play instruments because they want to make elvish music.

"It's happening. Let's go have a beer and a pipe; we did it, lads."

At least, I think so.