‘Canonicity’: the Book or the Reader?

[davem]

Helen

Suppose I wrote a 'fanfic' about a Hobbit called Trotter (complete with broken pipe & wooden shoes) rescuing Idis, Theoden's daughter, from the dungeon's of Giant Treebeard, encountering along the way some of 'pretty little fairies'? How many people unfamiliar with Tolkien's early work & the first drafts of LotR would consider it totally 'wrong' & entirely unacceptable?

Would that story be classed as 'uncanonical'?It would certainly be AU. It would have been entirely possible for Tolkien to have written a story like that, if he had taken a different road imaginatively. So, to what extent can a fanfic be said not to be 'canonical'? What 'period' of Tolkien's creative work does a piece of fan fiction have to correspond to in order to be acceptable?

A work of fan fiction may not correspond to the later vision, but it may capture the mood & spirit of the early work. Or it may get many 'facts' wrong & still be a good story. On the other hand, I've come across a lot of fan fiction, replete with 'facts', even large chunks of perfect Elvish, which bored me senseless. Of course, knowing Tolkien's creation as well as I do (though I'm certainly no 'expert'),I do find many things in otherwise good fan fiction which annoy & break the spell, but I suspect that that is because the inner consistency of reallity has not been achieved, the spell of the story not sufficiently well cast - because if it was I would have been too enchanted to notice the odd slip.

Maedhros

I don't know that I would agree that the first part of Tuor & his coming to Gondolin is 'better' or more effective than the Fall of Gondolin. They are simply different - in the same way that the revised Hobbit is not 'better' than the first edition, just different. There is more detail in Tuor, but it is unfinished, & for all we know the finished story might have been very poor, & not compared at all with FoG in terms of narrative effect.
When you say that T&HCTG is superior 'in your opinion' you point up the problem with your approach. You decided to leave out a note in the Parentage of Gil Galad because you consider it would adversely affect the Narn. For me this approach is only going to produce, as I said, an entirely idiosyncratic version - another group of scholars could decide to include the residence of Gil Galad at the Havens & let the Narn go hang. You cannot approach Tolkien's work in this way, in my opinion, because there is no way to prove that Tolkien, if he'd had the time, or inclination, wouldn't have rewritten the Narn to accomodate the Gil Galad idea. Leaving in the mechanical monsters from FoG creates even bigger problems for a 'consistent' version, in that it changes our whole understanding of Morgoth & what capacity he had for technological development. If he could produce tanks & flame throwers, why didn't he use them against the Valar in the War of Wrath, & decide instead on using living creatures (Balrogs & Dragons) which could be killed.

FoG is his attempt to mythologise the horrors of mechanised warfare, which his was the first generation to witness. It's the horror of the Somme battlefield seen (as Garth puts it) through 'enchanted eyes. It is far more that than part of a 'revised' Silmarillion. If you revise it to fit into a 'canon', an 'official' version (though I have to ask who the 'officials' are who will give final approval - is there an officiating body to whom you will offer up your completed version, who will stamp it 'officially approved', & declare all the other versions (including some of Tolkien's own) 'unofficial') you make it into something it was never intended to be.

In the same way, I don't think there is a 'canonical' Galadriel. The Galadriel of LotR is an exiled Noldor, who has been forbidden to return into the West, & only recieves forgiveness & permission to return through her rejection of the Ring, & her aid in the War of the Ring. The later Galadriel is not an exile, & could return at any time, but stays in order to fight Sauron. 'What Ship could bear this later Galadriel ever back across so wide a sea'? Well, presumably the first one she came across heading in the right direction.

Quote:'The casual reader doesn't need to be helped because to me the casual reader won't truly submerge himself into the legendarium of JRRT.'

I disagree with this profoundly - the reader, 'casual' or otherwise, does not 'submerge' himself - he is either 'submerged' or 'enchanted', or he is not. And if he is 'submerged' he will be 'truly' submerged.

When you refer in such a negative way to 'normal fans' -

(Quote: A normal fan of JRRT is certainly welcome to enjoy those tales, but I believe that if you want more, a more scholarly approach to the works and evolution of the legendarium of JRRT, one cannot be content with that. I think that one has to look for more.)

- as opposed to 'abnormal' ones (& I suppose I must feel grateful for my 'normality' here!) My blood begins to boil

Sorry, but there are simply 'fans' - albeit some who simply love the tales & some who seem to want to dictate which tales shall be loved & which shall not.

Findegil

Quote:'The goal is a as fully told legendarium of Eá as possible which is self consistent and which is true to the ideas of JRR Tolkien as fare as possible'.

One: it is simply not possible to make the Legendarium 'self consistent' without throwing away some of the most interesting bits & pieces - you make me think of a 'tree-surgeon' going in with a chain saw to 'tidy up' Niggle's Tree, & make it 'nice & symetrical'.

Quote:'The benefit of such a text would be an easier approch to the spell casting texts like The Fall of Gondolin.'

Two: No it wouldn't. It would more likely break the spell - its simply an attempt to break a thing to find out what it is made of, & then put it back together in what you consider to be a 'better' form, with all the bits that you consider 'don't belong' left out'.

Quote:'How many readers have rebuke The Silmarillion as being boring an styled like an historical compendium?'

Three: I neither know nor care.

Quote:'Didn't you enjoy The Narn because it was much fuller in styl then the short chapter in The Silmarillion?'

Four: No, I enjoyed both because they both work perfectly in their own way. Why should anyone have the right or the authority to choose one over the other & declare one 'canonical' & the other not?

Quote:'How many readers have ever enjoyed The Wanderings of Húrin?'

Five: As many, I'm sure, as wanted to, & I can't see that your 'official stamp of approval' will increase the number of future readers of that particular work.

(Erm...

Think I may have gone a bit far there. Please don't take it as a personal attack. Its just that I feel very strongly about this issue. I sincerely feel that your approach is mistaken. I hope you enjoy the process, but for me it is simply a form of 'fanfic' - you're taking what you enjoy from Tolkien's work, & creating something new. Good luck to you, but as with all fan fic, you shouldn't expect all the rest of us 'fans' to dub you, as the oft repeated blurbs on numerous forgettable fantasy novels will have it 'worthy successors of Tolkien', let alone my own personal favourite 'Comparable to Tolkien at his best'.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Heren Istarion,

Sometimes a "heavy" and well argued thread needs a lighter touch to put things in perspective. You have definitely done that!

Bethberry

Thanks so much for taking the time and energy to respond and clarify your initial meaning. My dear ancestors who lurked in the factories of Detroit and the mines of the U.K. would definitely faint if they thought I was questioning the reality of class differences in people's lives. I've always felt enormous empathy for Samwise. Tagging along with a bunch of Fallohides, he is required to stretch between two worlds, and that is not always easy.

******************************

Now on to other things....

There are so many markers of what I will obstinately now call Eruism without the “” that I cannot see how anyone could miss them.

Saucepan Man ,

I largely agree with your own view of "Eruism" that these markers were not all so clear cut when LotR first appeared. And, today, if we focus only on the text of the LotR, without knowledge of anything beyond it, these markers are still not quite so obvious.

However, I truly think it's difficult for the modern day reader to wash out of his head all the information we have gleaned from the Silmarillion, Carpenter's biography of Tolkien, and, most critically, the published Letters. At least this is true of anyone who goes beyond a casual reading of the books to participate in continuing study or discussion. Even those posters on this site who have never personally read any of the three items listed above are aware that they exist, if only by the comments of other posters.

The Eru-centered view of LotR is very prevalent today. Just look at recent works for sale on Amazon. There are a host of titles dealing with the religious themes in LotR, some scholarly, some popular, and others explicitly intended as devotional aids.

This was not the case in the period prior to 1977. As I hinted earlier, I feel that it was the publication of these three works, all within a two-year period, that irrevocably changed the way we look at Tolkien. I was in college and grad school from 1966 through 1976. (Yes, I know I was a perenniel student - ) During this period I participated in numerous discussions on Tolkien. Some were in college dorms, and others in the classroom with professors. The whole issue of Eru or "providence" was present, but was not the heart of our discussions. There were indeed clues in the text but these were not viewed in the way they are today. I saw providence as a silent spring running deep, but had no idea of Eru's role as delineated in the Silm, while others frankly thought such issues were only of peripheral importance.

The easiest way to confirm this is to take a look at the scholarly and popular writings on Tolkien that appeared before 1977. I have a bookshelf overflowing with battered paperback studies that date from the early sixties forward. Almost universally, the discussion of the divine undergirding of Middle-earth was not a prominent feature in these, the way it is today. There are a whole host of such commentators: Lin Carter; William Ready (the fellow Tolkien didn't like); editors like Isaacs, Zimbardo, and Lobdell who published dozens of essays by various authors; and my personal favorite Paul Kocher. If I sit down and scrutinize the index of these works, looking under terms like "God", "One", "religion", "providence" and such, I come away with only a handful of references.

I do not want to say there were "no" references because that isn't true. But they didn't occupy the central position we've given them today. It's interesting to note that the earliest recognition of Tolkien's views on religion and the divine came not through studying LotR, but through a close reading of "Leaf by Niggle". Kocher studied Niggle in both his books and also wrote a chapter on LotR entitled "Cosmic Order." (The very vagueness of that title says something!)

I think the first writer to have a clear view of Tolkien's ideas regarding Eru (presumably other than Christopher) was probably Clyde Kilby. He was a professor who spent one summer with Tolkien a few years before his death. He was supposed to help get the Silm ready for publication. He was also a deeply religious man. Kilby spent most of the summer talking with Tolkien about the material that would later become the Silm. Discussions about Eru and providence figured prominently in those encounters. Shortly after JRRT died, Kilby published the account of his summer in a small book that makes fascinating reading.

So looking back, I'd say the markers of Eruism were nowhere as clear as they are today. It was only with the publication of the edited Silm, Carpenter's bio, and especially the selected Letters that our whole view of Middle-earth changed and a picture of the Legendarium emerged. I feel that these three books, more than any others, changed the the way we approached interpreting Lord of the Rings, although others may certainly disagree.

[mark12_30]

Davem,

Lively ideas!

Suppose I wrote a 'fanfic' about a Hobbit called Trotter (complete with broken pipe & wooden shoes) rescuing Idis, Theoden's daughter, from the dungeon's of Giant Treebeard, encountering along the way some of 'pretty little fairies'?

Gee, sounds fun. What do you think, Child? (Who gets to visit the Cottage of Lost Play?)

How many people unfamiliar with Tolkien's early work & the first drafts of LotR would consider it totally 'wrong' & entirely unacceptable?

Lots of 'em. So it would be preferable to give the storya thorough introduction: a preface explaining what Tolkienish era the story is based in. One either explains who Trotter was, or, one refers the reader to the section of HoME the story is based from.

Would that story be classed as 'uncanonical'?

No. It would be classed as pre-LOTR, HoME fanfic. Admittedly you would have a much narrower audience than for a Legolas story.

It would certainly be AU.

For Strider, yes it would; but **not for Trotter.** And you're writing Trotter's story, not Strider's. Aren't you? (Or are you?)

What 'period' of Tolkien's creative work does a piece of fan fiction have to correspond to in order to be acceptable?

The period that you say you're working with. That's why I was excited about the "Sliding Scale" idea. Some of us have played/ are playing with The Lost Road. And there have been games involving Gondolin, Numenor... which used extra-Sil, HoME writings. We debated as we went.

A work of fan fiction may not correspond to the later vision, but it may capture the mood & spirit of the early work. Or it may get many 'facts' wrong & still be a good story. On the other hand, I've come across a lot of fan fiction, replete with 'facts', even large chunks of perfect Elvish, which bored me senseless.

I would certainly agree that fanfiction-- indeed, any good story-- requires more than just correct language and facts.

Of course, knowing Tolkien's creation as well as I do (though I'm certainly no 'expert'),I do find many things in otherwise good fan fiction which annoy & break the spell, but I suspect that that is because the inner consistency of reallity has not been achieved, the spell of the story not sufficiently well cast - because if it was I would have been too enchanted to notice the odd slip.

I agree that it must be part of the whole.

If I combed through Mithadan's Tales, I might be able to find a slip. But: I wasn't accosted, mugged or ambushed by any! Not one! And as a result, when I got to ... oh, I won't ruin it for you, but the part where -- yeah, that part -- I cried.

You are right. It's a question of not breaking the enchantment. So-- there has to be an enchantment there to start with . And that takes good writing, and inspiration, and a host of other things.

Character abuse is the worst form of non-canoni..ci..ty. In fact Tolkien Himself said so in Letters.



It is a pleasure discussing this with you, davem.

Grace and peace, --mark12_30

(EDIT: Child--

Tagging along with a bunch of Fallohides, he is required to stretch between two worlds, and that is not always easy.

I never saw it like that before. Now there's an eye-opener and no mistake.

[Lord of Angmar]

Would that story be classed as 'uncanonical'?(davem)

I would say that, to an extent, yes, this can be classed as 'uncanonical', in the sense that we can reasonably believe that J.R.R. Tolkien did not want Trotter, the Cottage of Lost Play, etc. to contribute to the make-up of a reader's view of Middle-earth. The fan fiction you speak of may be 'founded' in Professor Tolkien's writing, but I think the idea of having a 'foundation' in (some of) Tolkien's (posthumously published) writings should be separate from the notion of what is 'canon' in Tolkien's works.

So it would be preferable to give the storya thorough introduction: a preface explaining what Tolkienish era the story is based in.(mark12_30)

Here is another distinction we as Tolkienites might want to consider making: era vs. revision. The character Trotter may represent an 'era' of Tolkien's career, but he does not represent an era in the canonical history of Middle-earth; Tolkein revised The Lord of the Rings and edited out Trotter, likely because Tolkien did not want him to be considered a canonical figure in his works (which is why no stories containing Trotter, to my knowledge, were ever published by the Professor himself).

[Bêthberry]

Risks the wrath of 'Bethberry uncloaked' )

And so it's a dressing-down you wish to deliver, davem?

I have time now for but a very quick reply. I don't wish by any means to deny that an author and her personal experience forges the stories, davem, but rather to consider the entire process of language creation in larger framework, not as originating solely in the mind of one person but as the unique confluence of many events, social, cultural, political, as well as biographical. Perhaps I can make that more clear if I consider your hypothetical fanfic about Trotter, within the context of some of the responses here. (Forgive me for leaving someout. I write in haste.)

Helen says yes within a very proscribed regime of explanation and elaboration which would precede the story itself.

Child addresses, in an absolutely fabulous post about the history of critical reception, the perceived importance of Eru in Tolkien's writing. It would seem that the current preference in interpretation is dependant upon certain pivotal events in the publishing history.

Both of these situations point to the centrality of the interpretive community in understanding any text and in making any particular approach or interpretation "authoritative". This in fact is what is meant by the"death of the author." Not that we cruelly and , to my mind, erroneously ignore various aspects of the writing, primary or secondary materials, but that events in the wider cultural experience help determine what the stories mean to the community which values them.

Given that the Letters and The Silm were so closely 'controlled' by Christopher , given that there are diaries unpublished and other letters, it is a safe assumption (I think) to say that we don't have a 'complete' foundation upon which to build our interpretations. Who knows if other works exist which will, as with the publication of those three eventful books of which Child has spoken, propel the community of readers into a new paradigm which takes over centre stage from Eru.

The process of reading, of making-meaning, is like this. There is no finality to it, for aside from events such as the publication of new works by the author, there will always be cultural events which will shape how the interpretive community views the works themselves. I'm will to bet that an article can be written which would put the newly seen importance of Eru on not only those publications but also 9/11 and the Millenium itself.

We can work this back, also, davem, so that we see not only the mind of a single author mythologising his war experience, but the confluence of specific cultural events which in hindsight help explain why and how JRR Tolkien was so placed to create Middle earth.

Some members of BD want to proscribe a clearly delineated operation whereby they understand their work as continuing in some definition the intentions of Tolkien. This is one interpretive community.

Other members here are more suspect of that endeavour and in fact mightrepresent an-other interpretive community. I think it is safe to say that davem, myself, Mr. SaucepanMan and Mr. Hedgethistle, among others (and I don't wish to ignore others, I am merely writing in haste from memory) could belong to this group, if group it is... There will be as many interpretive communities as there are one or two gathered together in Tolkien's name.

I would say more here on Tolkien's idea in "Of Fairy-Stories" of how things get into the soup not because of some cultural reason or event in an author's life but because the inclusion represent "literary significance" (Tolkien's term). That significance depends upon, using Tolkien's idea (yes, yes, here I will now rise to champion the author), the satisfaction of certain desires. To me, in the long run, it is this aesthetic criterion which will "win out in the end". It the story or the interpretation (I'm extrapolating here of course beyond fantasy) satisfies this desire or consolation in the community, it will be accepted and pass on through the annals of history. If not, it will be forgotten, perhaps to be uncovered in some future archeology by a different interpretive community.

must dash. apologies for not writing better or more inclusively.

[Maédhros]

I don't know that I would agree that the first part of Tuor & his coming to Gondolin is 'better' or more effective than the Fall of Gondolin. They are simply different - in the same way that the revised Hobbit is not 'better' than the first edition, just different. There is more detail in Tuor, but it is unfinished, & for all we know the finished story might have been very poor, & not compared at all with FoG in terms of narrative effect.
When you say that T&HCTG is superior 'in your opinion' you point up the problem with your approach. You decided to leave out a note in the Parentage of Gil Galad because you consider it would adversely affect the Narn. For me this approach is only going to produce, as I said, an entirely idiosyncratic version - another group of scholars could decide to include the residence of Gil Galad at the Havens & let the Narn go hang. You cannot approach Tolkien's work in this way, in my opinion, because there is no way to prove that Tolkien, if he'd had the time, or inclination, wouldn't have rewritten the Narn to accomodate the Gil Galad idea. Leaving in the mechanical monsters from FoG creates even bigger problems for a 'consistent' version, in that it changes our whole understanding of Morgoth & what capacity he had for technological development. If he could produce tanks & flame throwers, why didn't he use them against the Valar in the War of Wrath, & decide instead on using living creatures (Balrogs & Dragons) which could be killed.

There will always be a problem of interpretation and personal taste with this. That is why we in the Project have tried to come up with reasonable and logical rules. I disagree about your comment regarding Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin in that I believe that if Tolkien would have finished that account, it would never have been as you said been very poor because it was Tolkien who wrote it.
What is to be included and not included is not a matter of whim but a matter of great debate. Again I disagree with your assertion that the addition of the Mechanical Monsters in the FoG creates a problem. That is indeed a common notion that many people have but if you truly look at it in detail (as Findegil did) one would realize that they are not incompatible, and that is why we came to the conclusion to use it.

FoG is his attempt to mythologise the horrors of mechanised warfare, which his was the first generation to witness. It's the horror of the Somme battlefield seen (as Garth puts it) through 'enchanted eyes. It is far more that than part of a 'revised' Silmarillion. If you revise it to fit into a 'canon', an 'official' version (though I have to ask who the 'officials' are who will give final approval - is there an officiating body to whom you will offer up your completed version, who will stamp it 'officially approved', & declare all the other versions (including some of Tolkien's own) 'unofficial') you make it into something it was never intended to be.

CT had always thought of the idea to make a "Silmarillion". He doubted if that would be the right thing to do, or to just publish the typescripts, manuscripts
of his father as he did in HoME. Is CT Published Silmarillion the official version? No. Is the work that he did on it amazing? Yes, it was, and it was probably his work in editing it that allowed the publication of HoME. Of course now, CT had certain regrets in his "Silmarillion" which is a natural thing. We in the project are doing that just for the pleasure of having a more complete "Silmarillion". There can never be a truly canonical "Silmarillion" because the author is dead.

I disagree with this profoundly - the reader, 'casual' or otherwise, does not 'submerge' himself - he is either 'submerged' or 'enchanted', or he is not. And if he is 'submerged' he will be 'truly' submerged.

When you refer in such a negative way to 'normal fans' -

(Quote: A normal fan of JRRT is certainly welcome to enjoy those tales, but I believe that if you want more, a more scholarly approach to the works and evolution of the legendarium of JRRT, one cannot be content with that. I think that one has to look for more.)

- as opposed to 'abnormal' ones (& I suppose I must feel grateful for my 'normality' here!) My blood begins to boil

Sorry, but there are simply 'fans' - albeit some who simply love the tales & some who seem to want to dictate which tales shall be loved & which shall not.

It is a matter of opinion. I don't see anything wrong with my description of a normal fan of JRRT. I believe that if you are truly in love with the works, one would not stop with reading the manuscript, but would want to see all of the alterations and developments of the story.
Can all of JRRT's typescripts and manuscripts be taken at the same value? I don't think so. Take for example the Tale of Turambar and compare it with the later Narn i Chîn Húrin. It is my personal opinion that when Tolkien wrote the Narn he was a better writer than when we wrote the Tale of Turambar. How could both of these works have the same "canonical" value if the later one is an expanded revision with a great many additions of the story. When comparing these two tales, would the 1917 Tale have the same weight as the 1951 Narn? To me the answer would be of course not.
There is a difference between canonicity and love of the works. For me, the most beautiful story that JRRT wrote is the Cottage of Lost Play and it is the one that I like the most, even though I consider that JRRT abandoned that concept early on and I do not consider it canon.
We can guide people by stating that we consider certain texts to be more "canonical" than others with some rules, but we can't tell each reader what to like and what not to.

[The Saucepan Man]

(The title above relates to only the final part of this post (and then only tenuously), but I couldn't resist the pun. )

H-I, my favourite section of that "article" that you posted is the final paragraph:

Finally, we can only guess at what the Sauron sources might have revealed ...

After all, Dark Lords have feelings too (and any reader of ROEBII will know that I have reason to feel strongly about this ). I would love to see a "fan-fic" written from, and sympathetic to, Sauron's perspective. As they say, history is always written by the victors. Of course, it would not be at all "canonical" since it would turn one of the themes central to Tolkien's works on its head. But it would be fun.

So, to what extent can a fanfic be said not to be 'canonical'? What 'period' of Tolkien's creative work does a piece of fan fiction have to correspond to in order to be acceptable?

By "canonical", I assume that you mean consistent with canon, davem, since a fan-fic, not having been penned by the author himself, can never form part of the canon. Using this definition, I would go along with Lord of Angmar and say that, to be "canonical" a fan-fic must be consistent with the works which Tolkien himself published during his lifetime (and there are only two set in Middle-earth) and arguably the Silmarillion (I remain "fuzzy" on that one). Anything else within the author's "unpublished texts" is surely up for grabs, since (as you put it) we will never know exactly how it would have appeared in its final form had he got round to publishing it (and that does, I suppose, include the Silm, since it would most likely have been quite different in many respects had he published it himself).

Which brings me neatly to your comments on the revised Silmarillion project:

If you revise it to fit into a 'canon', an 'official' version (though I have to ask who the 'officials' are who will give final approval - is there an officiating body to whom you will offer up your completed version, who will stamp it 'officially approved', & declare all the other versions (including some of Tolkien's own) 'unofficial') you make it into something it was never intended to be.

I think you are (intentionally?) missing the point here. As I understand it, those involved in the project do not intend forcing the fruits of their (rather exceptional) labours on anyone. As Bêthberry said, they simply form one of many "interpetive communities" within the "Tolkien fan umbrella" (do I use quote marks too much?). Even if the finished product were to be published, individual fans would be free to accept it, reject it or just simply ignore it (which goes back to this concept of the boundless freedom of the reader).

But I think that you recognise that, for you go on to say:

I hope you enjoy the process, but for me it is simply a form of 'fanfic' - you're taking what you enjoy from Tolkien's work, & creating something new.

I agree with you on this, although I would qualify your point by recognising that it would (for me at least) represent a much more authoritative body of work than the more traditional type of fan-fic (with the exception perhaps of Mith's works, although I have not read them and am going on what Helen and others have said). The reason being that the work is being undertaken with the genuine intent of remaining as true to Tolkien's ideas as possible by a group of people who are intimately familiar with the entirety of his works. I would be interested to read it, although I might well choose to exclude some, or even all, of it from my own personal view of the history of Middle-earth. I would be fully entitled to do so, and I don't imagine that Maedhros, Findegil or anyone else working on it would seek to deny this. Of course, if I was to join their "interpretive community" and enter into the process, or even just enter into a discussion on the substance of what they are producing (as opposed to the process by which they are producing it), I would have to accept the "rules of canon" by which they work (one of those restrictions which I mentioned earlier).

And so to "Eruism". Sharon, you beautifully encapsulated the reasons for my not having picked up on this theme throughout most of my "Tolkien-reading life" (those quote marks again). Indeed, when I first joined this forum, I was utterly astonished at how dominant this theme was among the discussions, and also at the clear link between an interest in Tolkien and deep (and primarily Christian) religious beliefs. (Although that is clearly not to say that all Tolkien fans are Christians or even deeply religious. Many are neither. I am nominally the former, but not the latter). I do of course recognise the importance of "Eruism" within Tolkien's works now and, indeed, have accepted it into my own little "Tolkien world". But it certainly had no role to play in my intitial "enchantment" (drat those quote marks - too many nebulous concepts ).

I think that the following point in your post is key:

However, I truly think it's difficult for the modern day reader to wash out of his head all the information we have gleaned from the Silmarillion, Carpenter's biography of Tolkien, and, most critically, the published Letters. At least this is true of anyone who goes beyond a casual reading of the books to participate in continuing study or discussion.

That is certainly true today, assuming that the reader is aware of the ideas contained in the works that you mention. But, unless they read Tolkien in a very odd order or read widely on this forum (or others like it) before first reading LotR, they will not necessarily pick up on these ideas on first reading the book (just as I didn't). And there will be many who (whether "casual" (doh!) or more serious readers) will never get around to reading the Silmarillion, the Letters or the "unpublished texts" (just as I might never have done). And there will also be many to whom the theme is simply not that important. In any of these circumstances, their experience cannot be said to be less valid than those who are aware of and/or who hold as important the "Eruism" theme (or any of the other ideas contained within the secondary materials). For them, the heroism will suffice. (That last sentence is in there simply to make my title pun more relevant.)

Yes, Bêthberry, social, cultural, political and biographical events will inevitably have an impact upon the manner in which an author is interpreted, in addition to the "secondary materials" which he himself has produced. But, as I am sure you would accept, not all of them will affect every individual reader, some may be not be affected by them at all, and those individuals who are affected by them will be affected in different ways. And, of course, one's own personal experiences and perspectives (one's religious beliefs, for example) will have a significant effect on one's own personal interpretation. Which, I suppose, accounts for the range of opinion here and elsewhere in this forum.

And, on that note, I shall take my leave (although no doubt only temporarily so).

~Saucepan~
A recovering quote mark addict

Edit:

We can guide people by stating that we consider certain texts to be more "canonical" than others with some rules, but we can't tell each reader what to like and what not to.

Thanks for that clarification Madhros, which I think confirms my understanding of what you are seeking to acheive.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Some members of BD want to proscribe a clearly delineated operation whereby they understand their work as continuing in some definition the intentions of Tolkien. This is one interpretative community.

Other members here are more suspect of that endeavour and in fact might represent an-other interpretative community. I think it is safe to say that davem, myself, Mr. SaucepanMan and Mr. Hedgethistle, among others (and I don't wish to ignore others, I am merely writing in haste from memory) could belong to this group, if group it is... There will be as many interpretive communities as there are one or two gathered together in Tolkien's name.

Once again, Bêthberry, thanks for putting this so concisely. This little schema you offer of different interpretative communities (I hereby forswear all “” in this post!) hearkens back to the question with which I began: “In a book that doesn’t really conclude, where does its truth end and our own begin?”

I am about to float something that will at first appear outrageous and will raise many hackles – please bear with the post however, as I hope that the hackles will droop as you proceed:

In LotR there are two rival groups set against one another. First, the Fellowship, brought together by Eru (as Elrond points out at the beginning of the Council: “Called, I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world” ). Second, the Nazgûl, under the domination of Saruon. I would suggest that the interpretative community you identify as trying to “understand their work as continuing in some definition the intentions of Tolkien” is reflected by the Nazgûl, while the interpretative community you say “suspect[s]…that endeavour” is reflected by the Fellowship.

Please, remember, keep all hackles down! I am NOT NOT NOT claiming that one group is one the side of good and the other one the side of evil; nor am I suggesting that one group has free will while the other are slaves. I am merely trying to work through how Tolkien himself provides us with a way of thinking about this in his own novel. The comparison/relation between the Fellowship and the Nazgûl – among other things – works through the relationship between those who seek truth by submitting themselves to an-other’s particular version of that truth (the Nazgûl look to the Eye/I of Sauron), and those who cling to their own particular versions of truth (hobbits, Men, Elves, Dwarves) while hoping against all hope that somehow these truths are part of an overarching Truth that they can never really know. Now, obviously, Tolkien is dramatising this relationship in a fiction – in our primary world, we are all (as readers) a mixture of Fellowship (seeking to maintain our own versions of truth, and hoping for Truth unknowable) and Nazgûl (seeking the truth from an authoritative, authorial other).

Any hackles? If so, please read the above paragraph again.

I think that we are all in agreement that our reading experience is some mixture of this – more importantly, that our sense of the truths and/or Truth of Middle-Earth is an (unhappy?) mixture or composite of these positions. I have seen some extraordinarily eloquent and intelligent attempts to work through this dilemma, but a dilemma it remains (for me at least). The questions that I have from this are:

1) Is it possible to turn to the author for the truth of the text and not become as the Nazûl? That is, can we place our faith in the authorial interpretation and not lose some of our own free will?

2) If we are to adopt the contrary position, is it possible for us in the Primary World to maintain the same faith and hope that Elrond expresses in the Secondary World of M-E that our truths are part of one Truth, without having to make recourse to number one?

In any of these circumstances, their experience cannot be said to be less valid than those who are aware of and/or who hold as important the "Eruism" theme (or any of the other ideas contained within the secondary materials). For them, the heroism will suffice. (That last sentence is in there simply to make my title pun more relevant.)

I think Saucepan Man and Child that you are both selling yourselves short. You both seem to be saying that in your first readings of LotR you had no conscious or overt sense of the Eruism that informs the text. Well, OK, but it’s quite a logical leap to go from that to the claim that you did not notice the effect of Eruism. If we had to be consciously aware of gravity for it to effect us, then everyone before Newton would have been in a lot of trouble! Perhaps a more appropriate analogy can come from music: one need not know a thing about scales and chords to feel their effect in a symphony by Mozart.

Allow me to return to my favourite example for this thread: Gollum’s little ‘tumble’ at the Cracks of Doom. You say that when you read the text, you did not consciously formulate any thought that there was a Force or Guide, beyond the characters, giving Gollum a little push there: you were unaware of the Eruism. OK, but I’m welling to bet dollars to donuts that you also did not through the book across the room in disgust and cry out. “What a cheat! Frodo totally caves in and the Gollum just trips and falls? It’s all a bloody accident, man! What a rip-off!” It should be amazing that this moment works at all – after all that has gone on, a lucky slip is what saves the day?!?!? In just about any other work, such an ending would be a cheat (imagine, for example, if at the end of Return of the Jedi the Emperor tripped on his robe and fell off the catwalk without any help from Darth Vader? Or if at the end of Moby Dick the whale happened to beach himself and the Pequod sprung a leak?)

But it does work, and not just dramatically, but thematically and meaning-fully – it feels and is precisely the right way for that moment to come off. It is, I would argue, the only way that it could come off. And we’re made to feel that way, to accept that moment not as a cheat but as the logical and satisfying conclusion (the eucatastrophe) because throughout the novel the Eruism that is immanent in the action has been there, quietly working away on our unconscious minds, prodding us, and insinuating itself into our reading experience, until we accept it like a second skin (or an interpretative layer). We’ve already said in this thread that the text is as much a product of the author’s unconscious mind as it is of his conscious will – why should our reading experience be any different?

You did not see the Eruism in LotR, or hear the progressive minor chord shifts in Mozart’s Requiem? Fine – good – who cares? They were there all the same, and your reaction to both works of art was effected by them without your conscious mind ever really being aware of it. This is one of the hallmarks of great art.

(And, incidentally, of effective propaganda… )

[Child of the 7th Age]

In LotR there are two rival groups set against one another. First, the Fellowship, brought together by Eru (as Elrond points out at the beginning of the Council: “Called, I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world” ). Second, the Nazgûl, under the domination of Saruon. I would suggest that the interpretative community you identify as trying to “understand their work as continuing in some definition the intentions of Tolkien” is reflected by the Nazgûl, while the interpretative community you say “suspect[s]…that endeavour” is reflected by the Fellowship.

Fordim

Ahem.... Well, this is an interesting dilemma. I've posted on the Downs a number of years and this is the first time I've been associated with a group of posters whose interpretive stance has been described as "reflected by the Nazgûl".

Whether constructing an RPG, or trying to interpret the ideas in the books, I do have an interest in "continuing in some definition the intentions of Tolkien". I am not saying I always succeed in this endeavor, but I feel it has merit. Hence, I would value a discussion about canon in relation to the books as long as things don't get set in stone. And I have a small monitor bell that goes off when fanfiction goes so far astray that I can no longer recognize even the tiniest hint of Tolkien. That's not to say I believe that fanfiction can be canon: it can't. And I'm not even comfortable with the term "canon-friendly" because I think that can mean so many different things. But somehow I prefer to see at least a healthy whiff of Tolkien's ideas, settings, or characters whether these come from BoLT, the Hobbit, or LotR. So I guess that puts me with the Nazgûl under the criteria you're using.

I would like to raise two objections to the paradigm of Fellowship versus Nazgûl that is put forward here. You describe these interpretive groups in terms of a conflict.....

between those who seek truth by submitting themselves to an-other’s particular version of that truth (the Nazgûl look to the Eye/I of Sauron), and those who cling to their own particular versions of truth (hobbits, Men, Elves, Dwarves) while hoping against all hope that somehow these truths are part of an overarching Truth that they can never really know.

This is one way of portraying these particular viewpoints but it is possible to suggest another, which is equally plausible and also has roots in Tolkien's writing. We are all subcreators. But perhaps those who are cognizant of the Original Music and try to incorporate its themes in their own creations are in effect following in the footsteps of the Great Creator (in this case, Tolkien himself). By contrast those who create melodies of their own which have no bearing to the original Music are merely pumping out discordant and jarring notes that are highly reminiscent of Melkor.

If you read the last paragraph and fell off your chair laughing, I don't blame you, because, frankly, such a comparison sheds more heat than light. And I think the same holds true for any artificial analogy of this type.

I believe none of us fall solely into one category or the other: slavishly following in Tolkien's footsteps, or going off on our own with creative interpretations that may or may not relate to the Professor's expressed views. To suggest such an extreme picture is misleading. In approaching Tolkien's writings, we are all on a sliding scale, some nearer one end, and some closer to the other. We all have moments when we think in terms of what JRRT meant by "X" or "Y", and others when we confront the text as individuals and come away with thoughts and insights that are uniquely our own.

In response to your comments about my post on Eruisms, I would voice a similar reservation. You are suggesting a dichotomy I do not see. I never stated that I was unable to perceive any evidence of Eru in my pre-1977 readings of LotR. I mentioned the quiet hand of providence at work and, in my first post, expressed delight that my early perceptions of Frodo and what happened at the end of the book were quite similar to those ideas that Tolkien presented in his published Letters. But I would still maintain that it's possible to read Tolkien without knowing all the ins and outs of the author's religious stance, to appreciate it simply as a good yarn. (The same holds true for someone who knew nothing about the northern myths.) But without the three published works I mentioned (Silm, bio, and Letters), it would be very hard to piece together the full picture of who Eru is, all the various Catholic interpretations that can be applied to things like lembas and Galadriel, and a host of other related things.

There is one thing you said with which I can heartily concur: that we can respond emotionally to themes in music or literature without our conscious mind being fully aware of all the details. And I think we can all agree that Tolkien is an absolute master in eliciting such a response!

P.S. A thanks to mark 12_30 for the new tree icon.

[davem]

Helen , I'm not writing the Trotter story. I did play around with the idea for a while - it would be told by Trotter in the first person, to a visitor to the Prancing Pony. If anyone wants to write it I don't have a problem. I've only ever written one piece of fanfic - 'Orophin dreams of the Waters of Awakening' -which is on my computer, but I can't post it anywhere, as every time i try & copy it across from word I get a 'bad gateway 502' message! (I have a mac using OsX if anyone can advise).

Maedhros I agree with you about the Cottage of Lost Play. And I take on board what Saucepanman has said. But I think the idea of a 'revised Sil' is mistaken if its meant to be taken as anything more than an interesting way for you guys to pass the time. My reason: You 're trying to produce a work of art by committee - what's that joke about a camel being a horse designed by a committee? You're not trying to create your own secondary world, you're trying to second guess Tolkien. Its simply impossible to know what the Legendarium would have ended up like, or what decisions Tolkien would have made in coming to a final version.

As to the Tale of Turambar vs the Narn - this only becomes an issue if you start thinking in terms of a canon which must choose one over the other, not for reasons of personal taste (as in my case I reject the 'Dome of Varda' because I find it too outlandish - even in a world of 'Elves & Dragons') but out of a desire to make a 'final' version & 'embalm' it.

I simply cannot see why you would feel a need to produce such a thing. As soon as you choose between two versions of a story, & accept one & reject the other based on personal taste - 'we like this one better than that one, so we'll keep this one'. But taste can't be used as a criterion - or all those with a Christian, or at least monotheistic, religious bent would produce an 'Eruist' version, & claim that they were putting together the version Tolkien would have really wanted, & all those with a more materialistic worldview would excise the Eruist references.

(Quote from Dunsany's 'The King of Elfland's Daughter 'springs to mind- 'For it is ever the way of witches with any two things, to choose the more mysterious of the two' - in other words, we are all biased & our choices, whether individual or a result of a committee's discussion, will inevitably reflect our own idiosyncracies).

Bethberry sorry no time- I'll respond later.

[Maédhros]

Maedhros I agree with you about the Cottage of Lost Play. And I take on board what Saucepanman has said. But I think the idea of a 'revised Sil' is mistaken if its meant to be taken as anything more than an interesting way for you guys to pass the time. My reason: You 're trying to produce a work of art by committee - what's that joke about a camel being a horse designed by a committee? You're not trying to create your own secondary world, you're trying to second guess Tolkien. Its simply impossible to know what the Legendarium would have ended up like, or what decisions Tolkien would have made in coming to a final version.

It is just what CT did in writting his "Silmarillion". Aye it is indeed impossible to know what would have JRRT have done in the end but I assure you that I have learned more of the legendarium and the evolution of it by just being in the project.

As to the Tale of Turambar vs the Narn - this only becomes an issue if you start thinking in terms of a canon which must choose one over the other, not for reasons of personal taste (as in my case I reject the 'Dome of Varda' because I find it too outlandish - even in a world of 'Elves & Dragons') but out of a desire to make a 'final' version & 'embalm' it.

I see it in terms of the evolution of the legendarium. The Narn to me is the product of a more mature Tolkien in reference to the Tale of Turambar. If JRRT was satisfied with the Tale, then why did he write the Narn? Even though I think that the Narn is superior to the Tale, my reason for thinking that it is more "canonical" has to do more with my common sense and logic.

simply cannot see why you would feel a need to produce such a thing. As soon as you choose between two versions of a story, & accept one & reject the other based on personal taste - 'we like this one better than that one, so we'll keep this one'. But taste can't be used as a criterion - or all those with a Christian, or at least monotheistic, religious bent would produce an 'Eruist' version, & claim that they were putting together the version Tolkien would have really wanted, & all those with a more materialistic worldview would excise the Eruist references.

I don't think that this is accurate. We have tried to minimize in our work or personal preferences. There have been times that our ideas has been rejected by the other memembers, and it is nearly impossible sometimes to come to an agreement. That is why we try to apply our principles in making a more complete "Silmarillion".
If there were not people who would feel a need to produce such a thing, then CT probably wouldn't have compiled his "Silmarillion", I wouldn't be here because I was truly enchanted by the work that CT did in his father's manuscripts. I think that there is a point that people are just content to read the stories and see how the evolved, but there are some of us out there which find that not nearly enough. I want to read a more "complete Silmarillion". In a way it would be a "Revision" of CT's previous work. Does it has it's limitations of course it does, do we think it will be finished? Not really but it is a work of love. I wish that some of you might read our finished chapter to know what you think about it.

[mark12_30]

*Gladly*, Maedhros, where do I find it?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I’m glad to see that Child and I fairly close together on most of the points that we raise. The only real differences between our positions are, so far as I can see, the result of my sloppy phraseology above, and in our choice of metaphors in describing the relationship between reader and (subcreated) text.

I believe none of us fall solely into one category or the other: slavishly following in Tolkien's footsteps, or going off on our own with creative interpretations that may or may not relate to the Professor's expressed views. To suggest such an extreme picture is misleading. In approaching Tolkien's writings, we are all on a sliding scale, some nearer one end, and some closer to the other. We all have moments when we think in terms of what JRRT meant by "X" or "Y", and others when we confront the text as individuals and come away with thoughts and insights that are uniquely our own.

I hope that I did not really give the impression that I think all readers are divided into two camps: the Nazgûl-readers combatively versus the Fellowship-readers (although going back to my post I can see that perhaps I did. . .confound me for posting late at night!). I did, however, state that “our reading experience is some mixture of this – more importantly, that our sense of the truths and/or Truth of Middle-Earth is an (unhappy?) mixture or composite of these positions.” What I meant to suggest is that within each individual reader (or act/moment of engaging with M-E) there exists simultaneously the potential for a Nazgûl-response and a Fellowship response. That is, we are subjected at once to the promise of the enchantment (the release and freedom from the Primary world through the magic of the story) as well as to the great danger of enchantment (of being ensorcelled and made subject to or of the magic). Again, this split response is, I think, anticipated in LotR by Gandalf and Saruman: the former enchants beings with the voice of counsel that provides hope; the latter enchants beings with the commanding power of his Voice.

Where Child and I do differ, and I think significantly, is in our revealing choice of metaphors about this mixed response. Child refers to a “sliding scale” and I to a “composite”. For Child, then, the act of engaging with the subcreation of Tolkien is one in which the reader can move back and forth between these responses, achieving some kind of balance? (Child wrote: “We all have moments when we think in terms of what JRRT meant by "X" or "Y", and others when we confront the text as individuals and come away with thoughts and insights that are uniquely our own.”). I suppose that what I mean by a “composite,” however, is that the reader is not moving from one position to the other in a happy and “balanced”(? – is this the right world Child?) manner, but that we are caught or suspended between positions that are in many ways irreconcilable (the subcreator or the reader – you can have it both ways, but not at the same time).

This is one way of portraying these particular viewpoints but it is possible to suggest another, which is equally plausible and also has roots in Tolkien's writing. We are all subcreators. But perhaps those who are cognizant of the Original Music and try to incorporate its themes in their own creations are in effect following in the footsteps of the Great Creator (in this case, Tolkien himself). By contrast those who create melodies of their own which have no bearing to the original Music are merely pumping out discordant and jarring notes that are highly reminiscent of Melkor.

I’m really not happy with the idea of elevating Tolkien to the status of “Great Creator,” for two reasons. First, M-E is clearly not a created realm on par with the Primary World. Second, Tolkien himself would resist this characterisation of his world. He is a subcreator and we are the readers. We do – I cannot agree more heartily, Child – participate in the act of subcreation through the act of reading, but the instant we do so in an unequal relationship, I believe that we begin to move (perhaps too far) down the road to Minas Morgul (“following in the footsteps of the Great Creator (in this case, Tolkien himself)”) and become Nazûl readers, by taking Tolkien as the Creator (as the Nazgûl take or have forced upon them Sauron in place of Eru).

It would be very hard to piece together the full picture of who Eru is, all the various Catholic interpretations that can be applied to things like lembas and Galadriel, and a host of other related things.

And a thanks to Child for this as it highlights a problem in my usage of Eruism – which I am delighted to see is catching on…perhaps much like a fungus. By Eruism I mean only that sense of a providential plan within which the individual becomes heroic in M-E, without any reference whatsoever to the Catholicism that, through Tolkien, informs it. (In other words, Eruism does not equal Catholicism, it is Tolkien’s subcreated and recovered version/vision of Catholicism). In this sense, I think once more that Child and I agree on this point: Eruism (but not Eru) is plainly evident to all who are enchanted by LotR insofar as we accept/enjoy/find satisfaction in moments like Gollum’s fall. Catholicism, Tolkien’s views on individual liberty and duty, and all the elements of the Primary World that inform Tolkien’s subcreated moral order of Eruism, are not.

[Novnarwen]

This is such an enjoyable thread! Finally, I'm being able to reply!

From Child's post:

But I would still maintain that it's possible to read Tolkien without knowing all the ins and outs of the author's religious stance, to appreciate it simply as a good yarn. (The same holds true for someone who knew nothing about the northern myths.) But without the three published works I mentioned (Silm, bio, and Letters), it would be very hard to piece together the full picture of who Eru is, all the various Catholic interpretations that can be applied to things like lembas and Galadriel, and a host of other related things.

Regarding the Picture of Eru: I think that too is individual... First of all because of the reader's own belief. If he/she is a Christian, who believes in God, he/she would naturally want to know the explanation of why things happen, just like in Real Life. The point I am trying to make, (which isn't working very well, is it?) is that it's natural for a religious reader/person to think there is something 'behind' LOTR, (The Silm, The Hobbit? And 'life' if it's 'just' a 'person'..) other than Tolkien. And discovering the Eruism (and who Eru really is) wouldn't be that 'difficult' as they already by nature seek after Him.

From Fordim's post:

Allow me to return to my favourite example for this thread: Gollum’s little ‘tumble’ at the Cracks of Doom. You say that when you read the text, you did not consciously formulate any thought that there was a Force or Guide, beyond the characters, giving Gollum a little push there: you were unaware of the Eruism.

Is the little push, which caused to the Ring's destruction and "Fall of Gollum" (the big eyed, nice little guy), automatically Eruism because it can't be explained? (I mean, he just fell, or stumbled, or tripped, or was just VERY clumsy. I think I know what you mean, but I feel 'obliged' to question it.)

From Fordim's post:

And a thanks to Child for this as it highlights a problem in my usage of Eruism – which I am delighted to see is catching on…perhaps much like a fungus. By Eruism I mean only that sense of a providential plan within which the individual becomes heroic in M-E, without any reference whatsoever to the Catholicism that, through Tolkien, informs it. (In other words, Eruism does not equal Catholicism, it is Tolkien’s subcreated and recovered version/vision of Catholicism). In this sense, I think once more that Child and I agree on this point: Eruism (but not Eru) is plainly evident to all who are enchanted by LotR insofar as we accept/enjoy/find satisfaction in moments like Gollum’s fall. Catholicism, Tolkien’s views on individual liberty and duty, and all the elements of the Primary World that inform Tolkien’s subcreated moral order of Eruism, are not.

(Marked in bold; my own.)

Eruism isn't necessarily an "evident to all who are enchanted by LotR insofar as we accept/enjoy/find satisfaction in moments like Gollum’s fall." I assume you mean that you'll find it satisfying, as it's a poof that there is a higher power (God) in LOTR? If so.. Then take for example; people who don't believe in Eru (God?), wouldn't think of Gollum's fall other than the fact that it was an accident, or that Tolkien wanted it that way. Eruism, which comes from Eru, the creator of Eä, wouldn't mean anything to a person who has no personal belief, or simply don't consider Eru as a God, a creator.

If it is not so, then ignore the paragraph above, or the post. Both would be just fine...

Cheers,
Nova

[drigel]

This thread is interesting and its why i come back to this site again and again. Its wonderfull thoughtfull contributors like u guys that make it so.

Nothing i can add at this point. We all love and re read the stuff over and over and over and..... at a certain point we feel like we know the author and what his intentions were.

Here are my two cents anyways hehe:

Cannon: What would be the authors desire? Published work. period. If it was fit to be published according to his standards - its cannon. Since all other writings IMO would not be considered "finished" by the author, they should be considered as fluid and "undefined" as any peice of artwork at "conception".

While I am as guilty as everyone else at trying to gleem insights into the unfinished work or the early ideas, its subjective - its my interpretation ... After all, (toungue in cheek - i guess i am in the second group) he was laying down a history of what his mind/imagination saw. IMO, his interpretation was just a fragment of that mosaic. But it was HIS vision - this was his work after all. The pieces were all laid down, its the details that we are arguing. He would be shocked at all this analysis - dismayed. He was never "inside" the work as we are - or would like to be. All the time spent analysing this point or that point could be cleared up in (if it were possible) a 5 minute conversation with the man.

Letters as Cannon: good to get general insight but leave it at that! These were personal letters to people. Every thought or word uttered by the man is not cannon. You cannot dissect the creative process as you can a crime scene or a frog. I love the letters but they were not intended by JRRT to be published

Carry on

[The Saucepan Man]

Fordim

I'm sorry, but I don't get this Fellowship: Nazgul analogy. Why are those who are creating a text of the Silmarillion which they feel sticks as closely as possible to Tolkien's ideas and intentions analagous to the Nazgul? Yes, they are binding themselves to a particular manner of interpretation (with, in this case, a closely drawn set of interpretative "rules"), but they are doing so of their own free will and they could withdraw at any time if they felt that it wasn't right for them. In addition, a cursorary glance at the Revised Silm threads will show that there is still ample scope for discussion and interpretation, even within the confines of the interpretive rules which they have set themselves. The Nazgul had none of these luxuries. As soon as they accepted the Rings of Power, their fate was sealed and there was nothing that they could do about it. They were irreversibly bound by Sauron's "interpretation".

I have to say that I prefer Sharon's analogy:

We are all subcreators. But perhaps those who are cognizant of the Original Music and try to incorporate its themes in their own creations are in effect following in the footsteps of the Great Creator (in this case, Tolkien himself). By contrast those who create melodies of their own which have no bearing to the original Music are merely pumping out discordant and jarring notes that are highly reminiscent of Melkor.

I don't see any problem with representing Tolkien as the Great Creator since we are talking about Eru who is himself a sub-creation.

Indeed, I would suggest a development of Sharon's analogy. Suppose we take Tolkien as Eru, the reader as the Ainur, the text of LotR as the Theme of the Music, and our interpretation of the text as Arda. Tolkien the Creator knows from the outset what will happen but the (first time) reader does not. The reader interprets the text as he reads it (sings the Music) and by the time he comes to the end, he has a complete interpretation (the creation of Arda). Most readers are bound by what is stated in the text (the Theme of the Music), but their own beliefs and experiences will shape their interpretation, just as the Ainur shaped Arda based upon the Theme of the Music. Take five different sets of Ainur and you will have five different Ardas, although each will follow the same basic pattern based upon the Theme, just as five different readers will have five different interpretations of LotR, but based upon the same pattern, namely the text. The reader who rejects what is said in the text and seeks to rewrite it as he would prefer to see it is in the position of Melkor rejecting the Theme laid out by Eru and seeking to reshape it according to his own wishes. He is free to do this, in the sense that he has free will, but it is wrong because it runs counter to the text (Eru's theme). (Hmm. Implications for Jackson's screen interpretation? Er - let's leave that aside for now.)

With me so far?

Now, let's take the materials in the Letters and the "unpublished texts", add in Bêthberry's social and political developments, and equate all of these with the Children of Eru. The Children, acting with free will, have a limited ability to change the Ainur's interpretation of Arda (the reader's interpretation of LotR), but they cannot alter the underlying Theme (the text of LotR). The Ainur's interpretation of Arda therefore changes as they encounter the Children and witness their freely willed behaviour, just as the reader's interpretation of LotR may change as he encounters and considers these secondary materials and experiences these external events.

So where does this analogy get us? Well it says to me that the reader has free will at every stage to interpret the text in the whatever manner seems most appropriate. Although that interpretation will be affected by the secondary materials and external influences, the reader is still free to accept or reject such influences if they do not resonate with him. But at all times, the reader is bound by what is said in the text itself unless he chooses (exercising free will) to act like Melkor and reject it.

OK, it's not a perfect analogy, and it will probably get shot down in flames. But it works for me, even in its imperfect state. What I would maintain, however, is that the only readers who have no free will, who truly are in the position of the Nazgul, are those who are prevented form reading the book in the first place, or who are told in no uncertain terms how they should interpret it (whether by their governemnt, their parents, their teacher, their preacher or whatever).

And just a quick word on this concept of "Eruism". I am glad, Fordim, that you got round to defining what you mean by this in your last post:

By Eruism I mean only that sense of a providential plan within which the individual becomes heroic in M-E, without any reference whatsoever to the Catholicism that, through Tolkien, informs it.

I most certainly agree that this sense of providence is an inherent part of the tale told in LotR. It should be, as it is, as you have said, imbued within the text itself. Yes, when I first read of the events at Sammath Naur, it seemed "right" to me that Gollum should fall into the fires of Orodruin with the Ring. I am not sure that I consciously thought about it, but the sense of providence must have been there on an unconscious level at least. Otherwise, as you say, I would have felt cheated by it. My concern was that you were suggesting that the text provided clear evidence of the existence of a Supreme Being and was necessarily open to interpretation only by reference to the values of a montheistic religion. Gollum's fall could be explained in any number of ways which does not require the existence of a single Supreme Being, and still fall within the ambit of providence. But you have explained yourself now, and I think that we agree.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I very much like your (sub)creation analogy Saucepan Man: I think it makes sense to me…

You say, however, that my Nazgûl-Fellowship analogy doesn’t resonate with you. Fair enough. But allow me to take one more run at it, using a paragraph from your own post as demonstration:

So where does this analogy get us? Well it says to me that the reader has free will at every stage to interpret the text in whatever manner seems most appropriate. Although that interpretation will be affected by the secondary materials and external influences, the reader is still free to accept or reject such influences if they do not resonate with him. But at all times, the reader is bound by what is said in the text itself unless he chooses (exercising free will) to act like Melkor and reject it.

Right here I think I can see the very relation that you and Child (I don’t know why I resist proper names so much) refer to as a “sliding scale” and that I call a “composite” – your own formulation of the reader’s response enacts both a Nazgûl and a Fellowship approach:

“Well it says to me that the reader has free will at every stage to interpret the text in whatever manner seems most appropriate” – the freedom of the Fellowship to be take up the Quest or lay it aside at will (“On those who go, no oath or bond is laid”).

“Although that interpretation will be affected by the secondary materials and external influences, the reader is still free to accept or reject such influences if they do not resonate with him.” – Still, the freedom of the Fellowship, but now a somewhat constrained freedom, or a mitigated one. The choice to continue on the Quest is couched by the advice of Elrond, the Counsel of Gandalf, the injunctions/testing of Galadriel, the role and effect of Eruism (“And then, as though some other will were using his voice, Frodo spoke. ‘I will go to Mordor. Although I do not know the way’.”)

“But at all times, the reader is bound by what is said in the text itself unless he chooses (exercising free will) to act like Melkor and reject it” – An extremely ironic sentence insofar as you seem to be linking the exercise of free will to Melkor; I understand perfectly what you are suggesting (Melkor chose to rebel against Eru), but it does re-emphasize my point: that in the same manner, the Nazgûl willingly gave themselves over to Sauron. They chose to accept the Rings of Power and to keep them. Insofar as you talk about the reader being “bound by what is said in the text unless he himself chooses” to exercise his or her free will – you are describing not just Melkor in response to Eru, but the Nazgûl to Sauron and, I would suggest, that instinct in us as readers to say “my individual truths are not equal to the intended Truth of the Creator of Middle-Earth, so He must tell me what the Truth is.”

Again I must say that I am not suggesting that any one group of readers, or even that any individual reader is either a Nazgûl-reader or a Fellowship-reader. Both stances are impossible in any kind of total form: we never can become wholly ensorcelled by the text to the point where we lose the ability to think for ourselves, nor can we willy-nilly generate whatever we want in response to the text without doing violence to it. We are all of us both Nazgûl and Fellowship at one and the same time. All I am trying to suggest through this analogy is that in our encounters with the subcreated world of M-E we are being put into a very difficult and fascination position as readers – we are being presented with a text that pits the Fellowship against the Nazgûl as bitter and opposed enemies, even as we are having a reading-experience in which we are at one and the same time both Nazgûl and Fellowship.

In effect, the text presents us with a vision of Nazgûl versus Fellowship, and then puts us into the position where we can see that we are both!

Again, great art does this…(but not effective propaganda)

[davem]

Maedhros

My position is that you don't have to choose between the stories, & classify one as 'better' or even that one expresses Tolkien's vision better than another. If we were talking about a collection of completely unrelated tales this wouldn't arise - so, the question is - are we actually talking about completely seperate stories? If we take BoLT as a different work than the pre-LotR Sil, & both as different from the post LotR Sil, there is no need to make these choices. And I think the premise you are working from is simply wrong. Because Tolkien uses many of the same characters, settings & events acoss all three (& in the Annals, etc) it simply 'fools' us into seeing them as the 'same' story evolving over time. But each was the 'definitive' version of the work when they were composed. Lost Tales was not written as a first draft of the post LotR Sil. It was a work which expressed Tolkien's desires at the time it was written. His desires had changed when he came to write the Sil in the 30's, so it was a different work. When he returned to the legends in the post LotR period, he was again writing something entirely different.

He is attempting to tell a number of stories, construct a number of 'Legendaria'. The characters, settings & events remain (in their 'essential' form, at least in some cases), but what Tolkien has to say changes, his world view changes. His life changes, so, in many ways, he is a different person, with different things to say. Probably his understanding of his faith & his relationship to God & the world changed as he matured - so the references in the Qenya Lexicon to Germans as 'barbarians' was a reflection of his beliefs & attitudes at the time he wrote it. They are neither 'canonical' nor 'non-canonical'. They reflect his feelings at the time of WW1. Later, his attitudes towards the German people changed. They are no longer 'barbarians'. But once they were - even the 'Elves' thought so.

The idea that you can take bits from the Fall of Gondolin, add to them bits from 'Tuor', written half a century or so later, by a 'different' writer - because Tolkien did change as a man & as a creator - & produce an 'official' version of the story of Gondolin is, in my view, mistaken. Its almost equivalent to taking some scenes from Marlowe's Jew of Malta, & Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice & trying to produce a 'canonical' Elizabethan view of 'Jewishness'', or combining Marlowe's Faustus & Goethe's Faust to get at the 'true' version of the legend. There simply isn't a 'canonical' Silmarillion - its the fox that isn't there. What is there, is JRR Tolkien, a writer who throughout his adult life was telling stories, with many of the same characters & events in them, but with different meanings & intentions. You can no more produce a 'canonical' Silmarillion, by choosing some bits from here, there & eveywhere from his ME writings & casting aside other bits, than you can create a 'canonical' JRRT, by taking some bits from his biology, his academic career, his personal life, his fictional & non fictional writings & rejecting other bits. Tolkien, as I said, is his creative life, the Legendarium, & the Legendarium is Tolkien. There is no 'definitive' version of either.

I'm glad your forays into trying to create a 'canon' have increased you appreciation of Tolkien's work, but I can't see what you hope to end up with, or what value you think it will have - I suspect that in the end you'll find that the process of creating it will be more important than what you end up with.

Bethberry

I think there is an essential difference between fairy stories & Tolkien's creation. The very process of tales being handed down by word of mouth, possibly over centuries, means they soon cease to be the work of a single mind, or reflective of a single person's worldview, at a particular time in that person's life. They accrue & discard details & references as they are told & re-told. They become something totally different to a book written by a particular author ('living shapes that move from mind to mind' as Tolkien put it is Mythopoea). Tolkien's legendarium is Tolkien's story (or, more accurately, as I said above, Tolkien's stories ). They come out of his mind, & in effect are him, speaking to us, mind to mind. To risk falling into the trap of 'Zen & the Art of interpreting Tolkien , we can almost say that while he was in the process of telling the stories - in the various periods of his life - he 'was' the story - his mind was focussed on them, his total attention was on the tale. So, when we read the stories, we encounter Tolkien 'mind to mind'. We are reading his thoughts - even if we know nothing about him or his day to day life or his beliefs, it is still Tolkien's mind that is communing with our mind. We cannot say that Tolkien is not there, because in effect we would be saying our minds are communing with nothing, or that our minds are communing with themselves. The author introduces new ideas - 'living' shapes move from his mind to ours' - 'living' because ideas & images are mental processes - processes transmitted from one living brain to another. So, the author & the reader are both 'really' present in the experience - the author doesn't 'cease' to be while the story is being told - even if he happens to be physically dead. His mind is 'alive', because his mind is the source of the living ideas we are experiencing as we read - & how can something dead produce life? Once we put down the story and think of something else, the author - whether still physically alive or not, is 'dead' to us, because we are no longer aware of his or her existence. Tolkien 'lives' when we read his writings - 'living' mind meets & interacts with 'living' mind - and if you can only offer that 'illusion' of serial time as an argument against that theory then I will be disappointed

No, The author of a tale is always present when the tale is told- whether we realise it or not.

[Bêthberry]

Oh thank heavens, SaucepanMan. For a bit there I was indeed thinking that Child's analogy--

By contrast those who create melodies of their own which have no bearing to the original Music are merely pumping out discordant and jarring notes that are highly reminiscent of Melkor.

--

was going a bit far. I mean, I can''t carry a note myself, but I think the point has always been to keep an ear tuned towards the original Music. Think of what Glenn Gould did with Bach's Goldberg Variations, after all.

My meagre contributions here have been dedicated towards examining what happens when we read (and, by extension, write), more towards a psychology of reading I suppose than an exploration of what is the right way to respond to Tolkien, although what I have hoped to do is show how important On Fairy Stories is to giving us a glimpse into how Tolkien regarded narrative.

That said, I wonder where, in any of the "allegories or applicabilites" any of us have put forth here, we could actually place Tolkien.

How did he regard his responsibility towards the texts he read as he came to create first the languages and then the characters who could go forth and speak the words?

We all know what he thought of Shakespeare's elves. He felt no compunction in "correcting" what he regarded as a species of error. Burnam Wood and the Ents, of course, we can also acknowledge.

We know what his essay on Beowulf did for the manner in which that poem had been used and interpreted.

On the other hand, how did Tolkien determine what he should take and use from Norse mythology for his mythology? or from Celtic legend?

I guess what I am wondering about is what Tolkien thought he was free to do as a reader and then as a writer. And, of course, what applicability that has to what we do.

[Lord of Angmar]

Its almost equivalent to taking some scenes from Marlowe's Jew of Malta, & Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice & trying to produce a 'canonical' Elizabethan view of 'Jewishness'', or combining Marlowe's Faustus & Goethe's Faust to get at the 'true' version of the legend. There simply isn't a 'canonical' Silmarillion - its the fox that isn't there.(davem)

I would say that it is more akin to reading earlier drafts of The Merchant of Venice and trying to form a 'canonical' view of Shylock, rather than solely analyzing the Shylock who made it through to the final script. I can understand what you are saying about Tolkien as a writer, but what you classify as an attempt "to tell a number of stories, construct a number of 'Legendaria'" I tend to see more as a gradual revision and refinement of a single 'Legendarium'. I do agree fully that there can be no 'canonical' Silm, and that under the parameters above only LotR (and possibly the Hobbit) can truly be considered 'canonical' to the legend of Middle-earth. Thus, I also agree with you that the Revised Silmarillion can and should be no more than a hobby.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I have one question for the whole which-works-are-canonical-and-which-aren't strand of this thread:

What is the purpose of constructing your canon -- whatever it may be? Are you striving for a comprehensive version of Middle-Earth or a truthful one? That is, are you trying get it all, or are you trying to get it right?

[Lord of Angmar]

What is the purpose of constructing your canon -- whatever it may be? Are you striving for a comprehensive version of Middle-Earth or a truthful one? That is, are you trying get it all, or are you trying to get it right?

That is a very pertinent question, since I think the word canon has been thrown around far too much. For myself, I love the Silmarillion, the BoLT, HoME, etc. I am a little "iffy" on the authenticity of each or all as a comprehensive history, since while I do tend to use them as a historian might use his history books when making an argument, at the same time I recognize that they may not entirely (or even remotely, who knows?) resemble what Tolkien intended to be a part of the history of Middle-earth. As far as 'canon' goes, I do believe that only LotR is a 100% 'canonical' part of Middle-earth. The rest of the 'Legendarium' as we know it, with the possible exception of The Hobbit, is a cluster of branches on a tree which, beautiful and enthralling as it may be, will never bear any verifiably canonical fruits.

[mark12_30]

That is, are you trying get it all, or are you trying to get it right?

I would say, trying to write eucatastrophe.

With the reader in mind, if one begins in a Tolkien environment with Tolkien characters (who are so well known), it is jarring to proceed inconsistently or treat the characters inconsistently and the spell is broken. If one can maintain 'it'-- the characters especially-- then one is less likely to lose the reader.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Oh, Bethberry , I'm sorry but I couldn't resist. It was late at night and all I could see was an image of myself as a Nazgûl. I just didn't want to go to bed with that embedded on my brain. It seemed nicer to consider the Music of Creation and my own small niche as a subcreator trying to weave a tune that would blend in with the main themes!

But, all kidding aside, I think your suggestion is an excellent one to look at how Tolkien himself worked with text and consider how freely he utilized ideas from Beowulf, the works of Shakespeare, and similar sources.

I guess what I am wondering about is what Tolkien thought he was free to do as a reader and then as a writer. And, of course, what applicability that has to what we do.

Would it also be useful to look at Tolkien's personal response when others took his own texts and ideas and drew meaning from these, whether a meaning that was consonent with his own or one that was different? Obviously, this process is laden with emotion. It is easier to make a calm decision when drawing ideas from another author's text than when confronted with someone doing the same to your own. The fact that so many of the early reviews of Tolkien refected such extreme views would also make this task more difficult.

Still, to understand the process fully, you'd ideally examine things from both sides: what Tolkien thought he was free to do as a reader and writer; and how he responded when others exercised their freedom to do the same.

The first thing that comes to mind is the well-known passage from the Letters that someone quoted earlier on this thread (or at least I think so). The italics are my own.

I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yest leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama. Absurd.

In theory at least, this suggests JRRT did not object to others coming into his own subcreation of Middle-earth, and further developing his legendarium using the same peoples and places that he wrote about. His list of artists does not explicitly include other writers, but, in order to produce a drama, someone must set pen to paper. Moreover, if he purposely intended to leave some tales only roughly sketched, it sounds as if he was inviting people to do more than simply repeat existing plots and ideas but rather to create something, almost in the manner of a fanfiction. How much freedom he would allot such artists in deviating from his own vision is, of course, another matter, but he did not slam the door in their faces.

Does anyone know of another artist who expressed a similar view: suggesting that others come in and create within his world, helping to develop the legends even further? And not just one subcreator, but potentially a whole host of them... Such an attitude is extraordinarily generous. The only one who comes to mind is the late Marian Zimmer Bradley who encouraged young writers to dabble in Darkover. There were a number of such "fanfiction" essays published during her life, and some of these folk went on to become fantasy writers with worlds of their own. But although she was a good writer and an early fan of Lord of the Rings, she was nowhere near the artist that Tolkien was.

***********
Fordim

Thanks for clarifying the part about Eruisms. I do see our positions as not that different.

Child

[The Saucepan Man]

Heavens but it's a job participating on this thread. Just as I've absorbed one set of views and forumulated (I rather like that typo ) my responses, a whole new set of them comes along.

Then take for example; people who don't believe in Eru (God?), wouldn't think of Gollum's fall other than the fact that it was an accident, or that Tolkien wanted it that way. Eruism, which comes from Eru, the creator of Eä, wouldn't mean anything to a person who has no personal belief, or simply don't consider Eru as a God, a creator. (Novnarwen)

I would disagree. Just because one doesn't believe in the existence of God in the real (primary) world, it does not follow that one cannot appreciate the importance of Eru within the sub-created world. And I now rather subscribe to Fordim's view that, even if someone who is not deeply religious is unaware of the role of Eru when he reads LotR, he will still receive from the text a strong sense of providence (on a subconscious level at least). The text implies that "something" made Gollum fall at that moment, just as "something" made Bilbo find the Ring, whatever that "something" may be.

They chose to accept the Rings of Power and to keep them. Insofar as you talk about the reader being “bound by what is said in the text unless he himself chooses” to exercise his or her free will – you are describing not just Melkor in response to Eru, but the Nazgûl to Sauron and, I would suggest, that instinct in us as readers to say “my individual truths are not equal to the intended Truth of the Creator of Middle-Earth, so He must tell me what the Truth is.”(Fordim Hedgethistle)

Point of order M'lud! Melkor had numerous opportunities to repent (and indeed pretended to do so on at least one occasion), as did Sauron. Yes, the Nazgul chose to take the Rings but, from the moment that they did, there was no going back. I see what you are saying: The "Nazgul-reader" is "ensorceled" (is that a word?) into the view that he must abide by the author's "truth" and is then effectively bound by that view. But surely he's not really bound. Surely he does still have the choice to break the spell and adopt a different approach to his interpretation of the author's works.

Your Nazgul-reader might just as well be labelled a Frodo/Gandalf-reader. His initial reaction is to follow his own interpretation, just as Frodo's initial reaction was that Bilbo should have killed Gollum when he had the chance. But Gandalf (the reader's wiser side) counsel's him in the "Eruistic" ("Eruian"?) way of mercy (acceptance of the author's own interpretation).

And I think the premise you are working from is simply wrong. (davem)

In whose eyes is it wrong? Yours maybe. But presumably you would not regard the efforts of Christopher Tolkien, who was seeking to acheive much the same thing when he compiled the Silmarillion, in the same way, or would you dismiss the published Silmarillion as ultimately valueless?

And it is certainly not wrong in the eyes of those undertaking the project, who clearly regard it as a worthwhile endeavour. And not necessarily in the eyes of others, some of whom will be interested to read it.

Lost Tales was not written as a first draft of the post LotR Sil. It was a work which expressed Tolkien's desires at the time it was written. His desires had changed when he came to write the Sil in the 30's, so it was a different work. When he returned to the legends in the post LotR period, he was again writing something entirely different. (davem)

That is a very good point, though. Does it perhaps point to a fundamental flaw in Tolkien's approach that he was unable to finalise one text written at one point in time reflecting his world-view at that time and then move onto another text (and perhaps another sub-created world) in order to express his changing views. Why did he feel the need to continue to express his developing perpsective on the primary world in the same sub-created world using (broadly) the same characters, and generally by re-working the same tales? He was able to conjure up other sub-created worlds (witness the tales of Farmer Giles, Smith and Niggle). If he had adopted this approach to all his works, he may well have published a lot more within his lifetime. But where would that leave Middle-earth? Would it still hold the same "enchantment"?

There simply isn't a 'canonical' Silmarillion - its the fox that isn't there.

Assuming that one excludes the published Silmarillion from Tolkien's "canon" (and, like Lord of Angmar, I can see the force in this argument), then the closest that one can get to a "canonical" Silmarillion, I suppose, is the form which it was in when LotR was published. The reason being that it is this form of the text which will represent the history on which LotR, which is part of the "canon", was based.

That's all for now folks. More later, undoubtedly ...

[Maédhros]

My position is that you don't have to choose between the stories, & classify one as 'better' or even that one expresses Tolkien's vision better than another. If we were talking about a collection of completely unrelated tales this wouldn't arise - so, the question is - are we actually talking about completely seperate stories? If we take BoLT as a different work than the pre-LotR Sil, & both as different from the post LotR Sil, there is no need to make these choices. And I think the premise you are working from is simply wrong. Because Tolkien uses many of the same characters, settings & events acoss all three (& in the Annals, etc) it simply 'fools' us into seeing them as the 'same' story evolving over time. But each was the 'definitive' version of the work when they were composed. Lost Tales was not written as a first draft of the post LotR Sil. It was a work which expressed Tolkien's desires at the time it was written. His desires had changed when he came to write the Sil in the 30's, so it was a different work. When he returned to the legends in the post LotR period, he was again writing something entirely different.

This is a valid opinion but an opinion nonetheless. I'm really not sure if we have read the same stories though. I think that this approach regarding the manuscripts and typescripts of JRRT is wrong. Take for example the Quenta Noldorinwa. If that version of the "Silmarillion", (the only complete Silmarillion) that JRRT wrote btw, is a complete separate "definite" work apart from the Tales, why would JRRT make a mention of those same Tales in the Quenta Noldorinwa?

From the Shaping of Middle-earth: Quenta Noldorinwa

On a time Ulmo contrived, as is told in the Tale of the Fall of Gondolin, that he should be led to a river-course that flowed underground from Lake Mithrim in the midst of Hithlum into a great chasm, Cris-Ilfing,4 the Rainbow-cleft, through which a turbulent water ran at last into the western sea. And the name of this chasm was so devised by reason of the rainbow that shimmered ever in the sun in that place, because of the abundance of the spray of the rapids and the waterfalls.
Of the deeds of desperate valour there done, by the chieftains of the noble houses and their warriors, and not least by Tuor, is much told in The Fall of Gondolin; of the death of Rog without the walls; and of the battle of Ecthelion of the Fountain with Gothmog lord of Balrogs in the very square of the king, where each slew the other; and of the defence of the tower of Turgon by the men of his household, until the tower was overthrown; and mighty was its fall and the fall of Turgon in its ruin.

If the Quenta Noldorinwa version used part of the Tales in its narrative, does that makes the Tales obsolete? If the definitive version uses the Tales does that means that the Tales are not discared then?

The idea that you can take bits from the Fall of Gondolin, add to them bits from 'Tuor', written half a century or so later, by a 'different' writer - because Tolkien did change as a man & as a creator - & produce an 'official' version of the story of Gondolin is, in my view, mistaken. Its almost equivalent to taking some scenes from Marlowe's Jew of Malta, & Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice & trying to produce a 'canonical' Elizabethan view of 'Jewishness'', or combining Marlowe's Faustus & Goethe's Faust to get at the 'true' version of the legend. There simply isn't a 'canonical' Silmarillion - its the fox that isn't there. What is there, is JRR Tolkien, a writer who throughout his adult life was telling stories, with many of the same characters & events in them, but with different meanings & intentions. You can no more produce a 'canonical' Silmarillion, by choosing some bits from here, there & eveywhere from his ME writings & casting aside other bits, than you can create a 'canonical' JRRT, by taking some bits from his biology, his academic career, his personal life, his fictional & non fictional writings & rejecting other bits. Tolkien, as I said, is his creative life, the Legendarium, & the Legendarium is Tolkien. There is no 'definitive' version of either.

Actually it is the other way around regarding our work in the Fall of Gondolin. I never used the word "official" in any of my posts nor do we claim that our Revised Silmarillion is "canonical". We have certain standards in which we weight the typescripts and manuscripts of JRRT.
As I have said before, there are some people who are happy with just reading the text, while there are others who want more. It is a good thing that CT didn't share your opinion of trying to make a "Silmarillion", because I would never have know any of it.

What is the purpose of constructing your canon -- whatever it may be? Are you striving for a comprehensive version of Middle-Earth or a truthful one? That is, are you trying get it all, or are you trying to get it right?

A truthful version of ME. What is that? How would I know if I get it right? We just have a set of principles and we strive to make a "more complete" Silmarillion that takes into account some of the latter ideas of JRRT.

[Lord of Angmar]

I don't mean to be rude to Maédhros, Child of the 7th Age, mark12_30 and The Saucepan Man by posting without looking over or addressing their most recent additions to the conversation, but I found an article that may be of some interest to all those involved in this thread. I don't know if the author, Mr. Martinez, is or has ever been a member of the Barrow-Downs, but he certainly sounds like one.

Edit: Having read just a little farther down (I was interrupted from reading the entire essay in one sitting), I have found that Mr. Martinez is (or appears to be in some capacity) a member or frequent viewer of the Barrow-downs:

Some folks at the Barrowdowns are asking whether the "Myths Transformed" section of Morgoth's Ring could or should be used in establishing a canon.

Quite interesting.

[Mister Underhill]

This is a fascinating discussion and I regret that I don't have more time to post my reactions to its finer points in more detail (hey!-- I heard those sighs of relief!).

Here's what compelled me to post: Fordim (greetings, welcome to the Downs, and all that good stuff), your analogies tend to pit author against reader in a titanic struggle, with the free will of the latter at stake. As the conversation has gotten a bit abstract for a pragmatist like myself, I wonder if you might be so good as to provide examples of the chief battlegrounds on which this war is fought. Or more plainly, where exactly are author and reader (potentially) at odds? What freedoms do you seek that Tolkien as author might restrict? Does the subtext of this concern have mainly to do with RPGs, or does it have broader application?

Kudos to all for a very thoughtful and thought-provoking thread.

[Aiwendil]

Is A New Silmarillion Justified?

It is necessary first to inquire into what exactly a "New Silmarillion" is, then into what it might mean for such an object to be "justified" or "unjustified".

The phrase "New Silmarillion" or "Revised Silmarillion" implicitly assumes that there is some "Old Silmarillion" or "Unrevised Silmarillion" with which it can be compared (indeed, in reference to which it is defined). What is this "Old Silmarillion"? It can only be the published Silmarillion, the ‘77, if you like.

But what is the published Silmarillion? It is not a text written by J.R.R. Tolkien. It is rather a continuous narrative constructed by Christopher Tolkien (and Guy Kay) out of the various texts written by his father. The objective of a "New Silmarillion" is the same: to present a continuous narrative constructed out of the various texts. It is thus not really a "revision". It bears no direct relation at all to the published Silmarillion. It is "new" only in the sense that, as it happens, the published Silmarillion was created first, chronologically.

The question, then, must become whether a continuous Silmarillion is justified. If yes, then, at least in principle, the New Silmarillion project is justified. If no, then the published Silmarillion is unjustified.

What can "justified" mean in this context? Obviously, it cannot have the kind of strong moral meaning it does when we ask, for example, whether a war is justified. I suppose we might break it down into two questions: is there any value in a continuous Silmarillion? Is there any harm in a continuous Silmarillion?

To the second question, I would answer "no" without hesitation. No one is being forced to read such a thing; no one is being forced (or even urged) to consider it "official" in any way. The existence of such a thing cannot be harmful.

The real question, then, is whether there is value in it. This is perhaps a bit more difficult to answer, but I think that the eventual answer must be "yes". I am a great fan of the scholarly approach to Tolkien's writings exemplified by HoMe. But the Silmarillion is above all else a work of literature - and a great work of literature. It deserves to exist in a coherent form. Would Beethoven's ninth symphony be great if it were never played, but merely studied in score? Would The Lord of the Rings be great if it existed only as scattered pieces of narrative with complex and oft conflicting indications for how these were to be fitted together? Would Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band be great if it were merely a long string of studio outtakes?

Maybe these things would still be in some sense "great". But when I consider such possibilities, the value of having these things whole, as fully realized works of art, becomes immediately apparent.

Silmarillions Plural

References to "The New Silmarillion", "The Revised Silmarillion", or (worst yet) "The Canonical Silmarillion" undoubtedly sound a bit monolithic. That is because each of these is to some degree a misnomer.

Even if the value of a continuous Silmarillion is admitted, the objection may be raised that the published Silmarillion already exists, so the desire for a continuous Silmarillion is fulfilled. Why is a new one needed? Add to this the misperception that the new one is intended to supercede the ‘77, to be THE Silmarillion for all time, and we have a very reasonable question.

But there is not a single "New Silmarillion"; there is an infinite number of them.

With the publication of HoMe we have essentially all of the Silmarillion texts. This is the primary source material, and nothing can ever alter that. Now it is clear that these texts can be arranged in many ways, can be added to or subtracted from, combined or dissected. It is clear also that the texts bear certain empirical relations with each other, and form something of a complex network. There is an astronomically high number of ways of manipulating these texts to form a new text (when we add the possibility of adding text, it becomes infinite). These ways can be evaluated in terms of the logical structure of the relations among the texts. In other words, there are an infinite number of Silmarillions that could theoretically be constructed out of the source material, and in theory there must be principles that can be invented that will guide the construction of such a text.

All this may seem a bit pedantic, since it is quite obvious that we can invent principles and then apply them to the source material and create a new text. But the chief point to be taken from it is that these are all operations in a purely logical space defined by the source texts - in other words, there are all sorts of continuous Silmarillions more or less inherent in the source material.

Obviously, some of these will be a lot more interesting than others. We could construct a Silmarillion by taking the QS found in HoMe V and replacing every fifth paragraph with the corresponding paragraph from Q in HoMe IV. This would be a very silly thing to do. There would seem to be no point in such a Silmarillion. But it is still a possible Silmarillion, inherent in the source material. We could take all the latest narratives written by Tolkien and put them together in chronological order. This would be a good deal more interesting, if only because we humans tend to think that the author's final thoughts on each particular subject are more interesting than his thoughts from various random intervals in the middle of his life. But such a Silmarillion would also have features that we would call disadvantages; the content of certain sections, for example, would conflict with the content of other sections.

So we can narrow our attention down to those Silmarillions in which there is a kind of consistency from beginning to end (and we need not worry that "consistency" is a vague term, for the set of Silmarillions we are interested in is arbitrary). Even here there are very many options. We could construct a perfectly consistent Lost Tales mythology. We could construct a Silmarillion using the QS as a base text and supplementing it only with earlier texts, altering inconsistencies in favor of QS. We could do the same but supplement it only with later texts. We could make a Myths Transformed Silmarillion. We could make a Silmarillioin in which no words not found in the base texts could be added. We could make one in which we are free to write fan fiction wherever it suits our fancy.

Again, some of these will have advantages and some will have disadvantages. I think that very many of them would be extremely interesting, and would have value in existing. The published Silmarillion is one of this sort. The "Revised Silmarillion" we are working on here is another of this sort. They are two among hypothetical hundreds; theoretical thousands.

When you look at things in this light, it seems almost irrelevant to argue about the principles on which any particular one of these is based - for obviously these are not the only principles upon which a Silmarillion could be based. It is just that this particular Silmarillion has these particular principles behind it, and it happens to be the Silmarillion we are talking about at the moment. We could just as easily speak of that Silmarillion with those principles. "Such and such a Silmarillion," you may say, "was constructed by a committee; I see that as a disadvantage." Fine. Construct one yourself. Seriously - it's quite fun. Better yet, construct two yourself. Choose different principles from which to start and see what results you get in each case. And when you're done, I'll be eager to read them both.

So you see I think that it's no use to argue whether THE Revised Silmarillion ought to be made. There are thousands of possible Silmarillions and there is no harm in any of them being made, and value in many. But you've got to start somewhere, and, since there were several more or less like-minded people on the forum, we chose certain guiding principles and embarked on constructing one as a committee. I happen to think that those principles will make for a Silmarillion of particular value; but then, I helped write the principles, so maybe it's just my personal opinion. In any case, I don't think that any such set of principles is somehow on a different plane from the others, nor that any continuous Silmarillion could ever be called "official" unless JRRT were to return from the grave and write it himself.

Canon and Canon

I think that a lot of confusion in discussions like that in this thread stems from an ambiguity in the meaning of the word "canon" as applied to Tolkien's works. This, I think, is because the word actually has two meanings that are, in the cases of most authors, identical.

On the one hand (and, I think, in its primary meaning), "the canon" can mean the set of works that we can safely say are "by author X". The James Joyce canon is the set of works that we can say are "by James Joyce", etc. It is an important term in literary criticism for it more or less identifies the works that are fair play in the critic's consideration of the author's writings. For Tolkien, this set would include The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, the writings found in HoMe, "Farmer Giles of Ham", etc. There may sometimes be ambiguity concerning certain works, and whether they are to be admitted in to the canon of a particular author. But in the case of Tolkien, I don't think there are really any such works.

If "the canon" for a particular author includes only finished works, then these works will generally be self-consistent. If they are supposed to take place in the same world, they will agree with each other regarding the facts about that world. Other authors may come along later and add their own stories about that world - but of course these are not part of the "canon" of the first author; hence, "canon" can in this case come to be thought of as referring to the facts about the imaginary world. In other words, "canon" can come to be equated with the "true history" of the imaginary world, as opposed to any false or unauthorized stories about it.

Obviously, this meaning of "canon" diverges from the first in the case of Tolkien. For Tolkien left us various writings that are part of the Tolkien canon (first meaning) but that disagree with each other. So the canon (second meaning) comes to refer to the "true history" of Arda. Obviously, such a concept is something of a fabrication (since this is all fiction), and we ought not be surprised when we discover that there is no single, authoritative canon (second meaning).

[HerenIstarion]

Again nothing important to add (I'm just too awed and fascinated to interfere, really) just one minor answer to one minor question:

Mr. Martinez have been visiting the Downs at one time (2000, I believe)

and, yes, well said, Aiwendil

[HerenIstarion]

Well, here is an article by Michael Martines on Suite 101 Is your canon on the loose?

And here is the profile for him on the Barrow Downs:

Michael Martinez

sincerely

edit: on close examination, article which the link is provided to is the selfsame as indicated in Lord of Angmar's post above. Sorry for repetition

Here is the weregild for the fault: Creating a new Silmarillion -- some ideas...

[drigel]

This argument really began with CT's providing us the Silm, which we all agree is not 100% JRRT. thank goodness it was produced. Looking back, I think the revision that took place was done with much regard to what JRRT originally intended - I think the thought was (at the time) to make the Silm a complete read - a book for us hungry JRRT fans. A "publishable" novel.

The argument (IMO) largely affected how the later Histories were laid out - where CT's input is clearly separate from JRRT. I would love to see a "New Silmarillion" published in the fashion of the Histories. Where JRRT's differing versions covering the same subject are presented in a manner where the reader makes his/her own "conlusion" of interpretation. CT's input would involve nothing more than background information and any other comments he likes. Just keep it separate from the work (canon?). Clearly, those of us who can read through any of the histoies (or even the Letters for that matter) dont need a "novel" format. Id buy that book!

[Bêthberry]

This is a reply to davem, post #98, wherein he states the argument, if I may paraphrase it, 'You are what you write.'

They [Tolkien's stories] come out of his mind, & in effect are him, speaking to us, mind to mind. To risk falling into the trap of 'Zen & the Art of interpreting Tolkien , we can almost say that while he was in the process of telling the stories - in the various periods of his life - he 'was' the story - his mind was focussed on them, his total attention was on the tale. So, when we read the stories, we encounter Tolkien 'mind to mind'. We are reading his thoughts - even if we know nothing about him or his day to day life or his beliefs, it is still Tolkien's mind that is communing with our mind. We cannot say that Tolkien is not there, because in effect we would be saying our minds are communing with nothing, or that our minds are communing with themselves.

Well now, let's see. What is the nature of this living life form's reproductive capabilites? Clone or new life form? If you ask a question of this textual mind, can it answer back, creating new expressions of communication itself, or are we limited to receiving repetition in the original language/mind only? I would tend to think it can only clone or echo and so your organic model of Tolkien as text strikes me, if I may be allowed such an outrageous analogy, as a kind of resurrection fallacy.

Furthermore, if you state that his textual mind continues in our new creations, then you are, in effect, denying both our presence in our own thoughts and subjugating them (oh, that Nazgû allegory again!) to Tolkien's mind, or crowning this thorny issue with questions of virginal gestation: where did his mind/text originate-- in previous mind/texts? Who indeed is the Word with. Or where.

This organic/ textual mind model also assumes that language is a transparent window between minds. Yet, if I may use an analogy from St. Paul, "we see through a glass darkly" (Corinthians 13). (Some have even called it a mire or swamp rather than glass. Nods to Sam Coleridge and Jonathan Culler.) Language is opaque; it follows its own predetermined code of paradigmatic and syntactic structures, already in place before our minds form the expressions. Tolkien may have created many languages, and he may have invented Middle-earth to give expression to them, but he wrote The Hobbit and LotR in English, using the fiction of translation between the 'original' and his text.

and if you can only offer that 'illusion' of serial time as an argument against that theory then I will be disappointed.

I hope, then, I have not only not disappointed you, but entertained you as well.

[The Saucepan Man]

This argument really began with CT's providing us the Silm, which we all agree is not 100% JRRT. thank goodness it was produced.

I wonder if it might be considered more "authoritative" if the corresponding texts in UT and the HoME series had never been published?

And here is the profile for him on the Barrow Downs

It rather amused me that the Reputation box states "Michael Martinez has started the path to adventure". A bit like the statement that the Barrow-Wight "is getting the hang of it". He (MM that is) seems to have been a bit touchy.

[Novnarwen]

I would disagree. Just because one doesn't believe in the existence of God in the real (primary) world, it does not follow that one cannot appreciate the importance of Eru within the sub-created world. And I now rather subscribe to Fordim's view that, even if someone who is not deeply religious is unaware of the role of Eru when he reads LotR, he will still receive from the text a strong sense of providence (on a subconscious level at least). The text implies that "something" made Gollum fall at that moment, just as "something" made Bilbo find the Ring, whatever that "something" may be.

I assume you are referring to this in LOTR, Mount Doom:

Suddenly Sam saw Gollum's long hands draw upwards to his mouth; his white fangs gleamed, and then snapped as they bit. Frodo gave a cry, and there he was, fallen upon his knees at the chasm's edge. But Gollum, dancing like a mad thing, held aloft the ring, a finger thrust within its circle. It shone now as if verily it was wrought of living fire.

"Precious, precious, precious!" Gollum cried. "My Precious! O my Precious!" And with that, even as his eyes were lifted up to gloat on his prize, he stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink, and then with a shriek he fell. Out of the depths came his last wail Precious, and he was gone.

Be honest, really honest. Do you see that 'something' (of Eruism) in that? I see your point about the fact that people could, and should, appreciate the Eruism in LOTR (And in the other works by Tolkien), but exactly where is the Eruism in that? I mean, if you’re not intentionally looking for it, wanting it to be Eruism, you, or at least I, can't find it! The poor fellow is toppling because he is dancing, not very well, I might add; but I honestly don't see the 'something' in there. I might be narrow-minded, but... help?

There are places in LOTR where there is indeed Eruism. But there is not place in LOTR where 'Eru' actually is mentioned, at least not, according to my little precious. Metaphorically, yes, perhaps. And for a normal reader, who is enchanted (but not overly convinced), the text in LOTR will give him/her nothing or very little of Eruism. However, I would think that Elbereth (Gilthoniel) would give every reader an implication of being a Goddess or at least someone who people look up to. Three times in LOTR Elbereth has singing Elves under her stars. This gives a certain impression, you know.

*hurries off to read the last posts of this thread*

Cheers,
Nova

[drigel]

Clearly the author intended some impressions of "providence", but likewise, any impression of ME "eruism" is intentionaly omitted. What one sees as "providence", I think others see as "plotline". The fundamental message to me is individuals making choices. The fact that there is one creator stands on its own. If there is any otherwordly influence being nuanced, i see more cases of Vala involvement in LOTR, than i do "eruism". In fact (sorry to offend), when i think of the term "eruism", then the term "rolling over in his grave" quickly thereafter comes to mind

[The Saucepan Man]

I see your point about the fact that people could, and should, appreciate the Eruism in LOTR

I am not saying that people "should" see it. But it does seem to me that the story conveys an inherent sense of providence that comes to a head during that scene.

I mean, if you’re not intentionally looking for it, wanting it to be Eruism, you, or at least I, can't find it! The poor fellow is toppling because he is dancing, not very well, I might add; but I honestly don't see the 'something' in there.

I think that the term "Eruism" may be misleading, as it implies an awareness of Eru, which was my bone of contention with Fordim in the first place. And that awareness will not come from a reading of LotR alone. I would prefer to use the term "providence", since it seems to me to be clearly implied in many parts, from the comments of Gandalf, Elrond and others, that providence of some sort is at work.

You are right. There is nothing in that passage, taken alone, to suggest anything other than that Gollum simply tripped and fell. But, taken together with the references mentioned above, it is surely implied that there is something more at work here than mere fortuity. The reader may only be aware of this on a subconscious level (as was the case, I think, with me the first few times that I read it). But, if it was not there, this scene would just not feel "right". As Fordim put it, we would feel cheated. If the Quest, which has been central to the story, was fulfilled by pure chance, it would not be at all satisfactory. However, I am sure that no one who has read and enjoyed the book would describe this resolution as unsatisfactory, even if they did not consciously analyse how and why it happened. Rather they would say that it "felt right". And how could it feel right if it was simply an accident?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I think I would like to cling to my horrific term for the time being. I consciously chose not to call the Guiding Hand in LotR Providence as that is a concept from the Primary World and I wanted something that would more correctly refer to the version of that (Christian) concept as it is subcreated in M-E. The point has been made quite rightly that Eru is not mentioned in LotR, but neither is Providence: the Guiding Hand of Eru (eruism) is most often referred to, I think, as “luck” or “chance”.

The advantage that I see with eruism over Providence is that I wish to emphasise how this providential model of history is one that Tolkien has himself subcreated and ‘inserted’ into his story in such a way that it guides our interpretation of the story (of his entire historia to cite my other dreadful terminology – rolling over in his grave indeed!). The concept of Providence is something that I need to bring from ‘outside’ the text (it’s this kind of a project that Nova is, I think, talking about), whereas I find eruism within the text.

But this is rapidly becoming just the kind of argument over terminology that I fear afflicts the debate over canon and whether text A is or is not within the purview of that term (whatever it means).

The real reason I’m posting right now (other than the need for a bit of a break in a terribly tedious and laborious day) is to address the excellent question put to me by Mister Underhill:

your analogies tend to pit author against reader in a titanic struggle, with the free will of the latter at stake…where exactly are author and reader (potentially) at odds? What freedoms do you seek that Tolkien as author might restrict?

I do realise that my initial posts on this tended this way – I had not yet had the benefit of others’ response to push my thinking into a more subtle form – but my current position (and I’m comfortable with it) is that the “struggle” that takes place is entirely internal to the individual reader (or, more appropriately, lest Bêthberry should read this ) to the individual moment of readerly engagement with the text. That is, we are ourselves torn between the desire to interpret for ourselves (Gollum jumped into the fires to save the world; he fell by accident), and the demands placed upon us by elements of M-E – such as eruism – to interpret events in a particular way (Gollum got a little push from a Guiding Hand – revealed in the Sil to belong to Eru, and most closely connected in the Primary World to Christian Providence).

Note to Saucepan Man – Yes, ensorcelled is very much a word, in the OED and everything. It also happens to be one of my very favourite words, and I love getting the chance to use it:

ensorcelled ensorcelled ensorcelled ensorcelled ensorcelled ensorcelled ensorcelled!!!

[davem]

LoA

I can see what you mean with the 'Shylock' point - but if we did construct such a Shylock, would he be recognisable as the figure we know - even to Shakespeare? I think the attempt would be futile, as what we would end up with would really tell us nothing in regard to the play. We may find out a bit more about Shakespeare's thought processes & how he created his characters, but we wouldn't gain any more insight into the play itself - which is the thing we would be after. A 'canonical' Sil might reveal something about Tolkien, but it would seem a very roundabout way of doing so.

Saucepanman

I take the point that CT constructed the '77 Sil in the same way as our colleagues are doing with their attempt at a revised Sil - but the question occurs, If CT was to throw himself under a bus, would they follow his example in that? More seriously, CT has expressed deep regret at his attempt to produce a coherent Sil. In his case, I can sympathise, because there was no way the publishers would have leapt straight into the publicaction of HoME, & he felt an obligation to make his father's Sil writings available to the public. With the publication of HoME this is no longer necessary. I still can't see the value of it, especially not if it is simply to be one among many - this would put off potential readers - which one would they choose?

Aiwendil

Your examples of Beethoven's Ninth & LotR don't work for me - if we only had those works in the forms you describe (which i can't think we would have, as there would be no interest in having them, so no publisher would make them available) & all we got was a slew of different versions, no one would no which one to take seriously. I'm reminded of Eric Morecambe's line, that he was 'playing all the right notes, but not necessarilly in the right order'.

I still think that FoG & Tuor are so different in form & intention that to try taking something from one, & something from the other, suplimented by bits from other references to the story, will not produce anything of real value. If FoG is the young Tolkien's mythologisation of his experience of the Somme, which I feel it is, to a great extent, & Tuor is the Older Tolkien's attempt to write a legend based in ME, detached by time & his own lifetime of other experiences, the two stories will not fit together in the way you assume. Yes, we have characters with the same name recurring throughout the Legendarium, but are they the same characters. I can't see that Gollum (1) (from the 1st ed Hobbit) is the same character as Gollum (2) (from the revised Hobbit), or that Galadriel (1) (from LotR) is the same character as Galadriel (2) (from the later writings - History of Galadriel & Celeborn, etc). To take bits from both versions of these characters & try to create a 'canonical' Gollum (1+2 = ?) or a 'canonical' Galadriel seems doomed to failure - Gollum (2) would never have given up the ring to Bilbo as Gollum (1) would have willingly done, Galadriel (2) would have no need to be forgiven & allowed to return into the West as Galadriel (1) did - which part of her story do you throw out - The beautiful scene of her rejection of the Ring, & repentance for her 'sins' in LotR (G1) or her role as leader of the forces of the West against Sauron, a role which Tolkien says is equivalent to the role of Manwe in the battle against Morgoth (G2)? Sauron is simply not Thu, let alone Tevildo.

Maedhros

We can't know whether the 'Fall of Gondolin' referred to in QN is to be the same FoG as the one in BoLT, or whether Tolkien had in mind a new version - which I suspect is the case , as QN is such a radically different work from BoLT- if he'd rewritten the other stories in line with what is a different intention for the work, why would he leave such a major story untouched? If he had wanted to retain the stories of BoLT as they were, why not just finish it - or simply remove the 'Cottage of Lost Play' elements?

Bethberry

I don't see this 'clone' analogy working - the creative mind was not a clone whenn it created the stories (produced the ideas). We are simply exposed to the living idea, 'across time' as it were. It was 'alive' (ie, a product of a living conscious entity). It enters our currently 'living' consciousness, so it is the interaction of a living thing with another living thing. This is very much like the ideas Tolkien was exploring in the Lost Road & the Notion Club Papers. Living minds from Numenor - their present - our past interact mentally with living minds in the 20th Century - our present - their future. Time, as Tolkien is saying in these stories, is not a fixed thing, moving constantly forward. The 'past', the 'present' & the 'future can interact with each other - not physically, but living mind to living mind. Ideas, experiences, can be transmitted is what Tolkien is saying here (is that idea 'canonical' or not?) It does not involve 'resurrection' at all, as none of the parties involved is 'dead', just living in different places in space-time. We are currently communicating across thousands of miles of space-time & neither of us had to be brought back from the dead to do it (well, obviously I can only make that statement in full confidence as regards myself )

I don't think this does require 'the purposed domination of the author' either - we 'co-create' - neither mind is dominant (as in this discussion - though we mayeach try & achieve such dominance ). Neither is there any requirement for an 'original' thought - a point which Tolkien makes in Fairy Stories - it would not be possible to discover one even if it existed. The issue is not 'language' - unless we mean a 'symbolic' form of such, & spoken/written language surely originated in the need/desire to communicate, & in the connection between living minds which creates that need, driven by that desire. I'm sure both Jung & Chomsky are hovering around this discussion somewhere, but I haven't quite worked out what they're saying - its probably that 'language' thing you mentioned.

(This is starting to remind me of my discussion on 'Evil Things' with HerenIstarion - I don't think there's enough of this kind of thing on these boards !)

[Bêthberry]

Mr. Hedgethistle,

my current position (and I?m comfortable with it) is that the ?struggle? that takes place is entirely internal to the individual reader (or, more appropriately, lest Bêthberry should read this to the individual moment of readerly engagement with the text.

I cannot express how pleased I am that you have found a position you are comfortable with.

That is, we are ourselves torn between the desire to interpret for ourselves (Gollum jumped into the fires to save the world; he fell by accident), and the demands placed upon us by elements of M-E ? such as eruism ? to interpret events in a particular way (Gollum got a little push from a Guiding Hand ? revealed in the Sil to belong to Eru, and most closely connected in the Primary World to Christian Providence).

I think this is not quite my point, although it could be yours. The text does, I would argue, provide a comfortable setting in which to accept that moment of the fall/jump is aesthetically significant and in keeping with other elements in the text. We might have here an example of a confusion between the poet's act and Eru's act. I might think that Tolkien hoped readers to make that leap between the two, substituting Eruism for his own faith, but it seems to me that what we have here is a unified heterocosm which works against any kind of interpretation which would support randomness in Middle-earth.

I am , al always these days, rushed. Does this make sense?