Friends of Nimrodel: Tapestry of Dreams - Discussion

[Nurumaiel]

Helen, then let's just play it by ear, shall we? I'm toying with the idea of introducing a gypsy to the company.... Yet I do know if I'm following our rules about canon? I don't believe Tolkien ever said anything about gypsies in his works but that doesn't prove they didn't exist, or so I hope and believe. I compare it with the example such as if I wrote a song but never mentioned it to anyone, just because I hadn't said anything about the song wouldn't mean it didn't actually exist. In fact it most certainly wouldn't, because it would exist. That is merely my view, however, and if anyone feels I'm going against canon please take me to pieces. However if Tolkien did mention gypsies somewhere in his works I would love to know where.

Rohan team, I've taken the liberty of bringing Dec. 14 to a close. If any of you have a post you'd like to make before that evening, merely PM me with your post or put it here and I'll paste it above mine.

[mark12_30]

Nuru,

What an interesting idea. I'm not aware that Tolkien ever mentioned "gypsies" as such; perhaps because (if I recall correctly) gypsies were originally a particular strain of nationality...? I seem to connect them vaguely with the Hungarians somehow, not sure if that is correct.

However, Tolkien spoke plenty about wanderers, loners, and nomadic sorts of people. Roads were dangerous, and not just because of the trolls.

The Rohirrim generally strike me as a clannish people. But you could develop a case for the Rohirrim way out on the fringes of Rohan (beyond Fangorn!) being more separated from Rohirric society, and absorbing a little more culture from everyone who comes their way-- elves, dwarves, Gondorians, and... whoever. They'd have a variety of songs, woundn't they?

I'll go check my indexes (indices, only it sounds funny) and see what I can find.

Letters: No mention of Gypsies; Wanderers: one mention (unexplained) of Wainriders. I googled it; Here's what this page says about Wainriders:

Wainriders
The Wainriders were a confederation of Easterling tribes who were united by their hate of Gondor, fueled by the dark lord Sauron. Following the Great Plague which weakened Gondor, they started their attacks in 1856 (T.A.), defeating the Gondorian army and killing king Narmacil II. They rode in great wagons and chariots (which gave them their name), and raided the lands of Rhovanion, destroying or enslaving its people. Gondor gradually lost all of its possessions east of Anduin to them. The thirtieth king of Gondor, Calimehtar son of Narmacil, defeated the Wainriders at the plain of Dagorlad, buying some rest for his land. However the Wainriders struck back in 1944, allying themselves with the Haradrim of Near Harad and the Variags of Khand. They managed to kill king Ondoher and all his heirs, but instead of riding on to Minas Anor and taking the city, they paused to celebrate. Meanwhile, general Eärnil of Gondor's southern army had defeaten the Haradrim, and rode north to defend his king. He came too late to rescue Ondoher, but managed to totally defeat the Wainriders. Eärnil was crowned king. After this defeat the might of the Wainriders was broken, and they retreated east. They still held Rhovanion, but never troubled Gondor again. It later turned out that their attacks were staged by Sauron, and allowed him to reclaim Mordor while Gondor's watch was diverted.

Interesting; sounds quite gypsy-ish. I wonder if a few of their ancestors still lingered in Mirkwood around Dol Guldor, and perhaps mingled with the folk across the Anduin. Now, that really might make them outcasts!
From the same page:

Balchoth
The Balchoth were a fierce race of Easterlings, who attacked Gondor while under orders of Dol Guldur. In 2150 they overran the plains of Calenardhon and almost destroyed the army of the Ruling Steward Cirion, but were defeaten by the Éothéod under Eorl the Young. Like the Wainriders they rode in chariots and wagons, and they may have been descendants of this people.

Variags
The Variags were the people of Khand, and they first appeared in the West in 1944 of the Third Age, fighting alongside the Wainriders. They later appeared during the battle of the Pelennor Fields. Little was known about them, but they appeared to be a race of horse-men much like the Rohirrim, although they were fiercely loyal to Mordor.

Either way, I *love* the idea of songs floating past on the breeze. Very, very nice.

You know... my husband's computer has a microphone on it, too... (glances at her pennywhistle lying next to the keyboard.) Disk storage, we need disk storage.

[littlemanpoet]

I suggest that these wanderers not be exiled Rohirrim. It would be more likely for them to be a group of Easterlings from somewhere between the Rhun and the Ered Lithui (or farther east). With that origin, you could feed in a Hungarian style culture for them (you were right, Helen ), and make them as gypsy as you like. They would have had to pass between Rhovanion and the Brown Lands, crossed the Anduin by whatever ingenuity they could fashion, such as building temporary rafts from stray logs to ferry their carriages (or whatever you want to call them), then move on westward between Lorien and the Limlight. They surely see the mountains rising before them, and would probably be wondering whether to settle and become farmers, or continue to move on and see who they could trade with, or whatever. What did gypsies do to survive, anyway? Sell? Hunt? I don't know.....

[mark12_30]

Wow, that was quite an intersection of ideas! lmp, didja see the edits on the wainriders and other easterlings?... shoo!

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

I love your idea, Nuru!

I know I'm a little late here with this idea...but I thought I'd include some info...

I'm not aware that Tolkien ever mentioned "gypsies" as such; perhaps because (if I recall correctly) gypsies were originally a particular strain of nationality...? I seem to connect them vaguely with the Hungarians somehow, not sure if that is correct.

This site has a lot of information on Roma.

"The Roma are an ethnic minority whose origins began on the Indian subcontinent over one thousand years ago. Because they arrived in Europe from the East, they were thought by the first Europeans to be from Turkey, Nubia or Egypt, or any number of non-European places. They were called, among other things, Egyptians or ‘Gyptians, which is where the word "Gypsy" comes from."

I think this quote is why I'm not entirely sure if they'd be called "Gypsies" in Middle-Earth if they did exist, but it depends on how Helen wants it.

"Most Roma have always referred to themselves by their tribal names, or as Rom or Roma, meaning "Man" or "People." The trend is to eliminate the use of derogatory, pejorative and offensive names, such as Gypsies, and to be given proper respect by the use of the self-appelation of Roma, or Rroma. Gypsies, although offensive to most Roma, is still a proper name."

Anyway, the idea sounds like a great deal of fun, Nuru, and I think if you just use lmp's idea of them being Easterlings it would work out fine. Helen, do you think the wanderer's should have a name other than 'Gypsies' or is it okay to use? I just wanted to make sure.

Also, in my last post it is still the night of the 14th, but after Amroth leaves for I assumed that he left at night. If this isn't right, just let me know and I'll edit a bit.

[Nurumaiel]

Thanks for all the suggestions for the gypsies! I was aware that the name actually referred to a particular race, but it's become a habit around this house to use it as a reference to 'the travelling people,' whatever race they happen to be. I preferred Liornung to say 'gypsy' oppose to 'tinker' or 'rolling stone' or any other such name. I love the idea of the Easterlings...

However my idea with this group was using the term 'gypsies' as a group of wandering people rather than the Roma, or in this case Easterlings (I'm not Roma, but I'm sometimes referred to as the 'Whistling Gypsy,' merely implyng that I'm a whistling, singing person who spends much time wandering through the woods and the like). It would be a very old group of wandering people... if they were to mention their history when the Rohan company encounters them perhaps it could have started with a few Easterlings travelling many, many years ago, years before the War of the Ring, and it had grown over time as lone wanderers from Rohan and Gondor joined them. How would this work?

I could work it either way, that is, use gypsy as a term referring to the Roma or in the game the Easterlings, or as merely a group of wandering people. Let me know what you think.

[mark12_30]

Nuru--

I like the people and what you are doing with them and how Liornung relates to them. The rohirric family I think littlemanpoet wil have something to say about-- he seems to have strong feelings about it and I'm not sure why but I respect his opinions highly, so if he feels strongly about it, we'll weigh that quite heavily.

Other than that-- I just think the word "gypsies" is jarring. But I have an idea: WHy not come up with an old-English word tht means "wanderers" or "carriage-riders" or something, and use that? Maybe lmp could help, or Bethberry, or somebody.

Sound doable?