Evil things

[davem]

H-I, I kind of hope we're not reaching a consensus, as I'm enjoying this (I won't speak for anyone else having this inflicted on )

As to Fea & Hroa. The point is, the existence of the Fea is not dependent on the hroa, but the hroa is dependent on the fea. The hroa can die, but the fea does not also die, so fea is dominant - even to the extent that it will eventually burn away the hroa. So, fea can exist without hroa, but hroa cannot exist without fea. Which means that fea, even in elves, is dominant, because it proceeds directly from Eru, which hroa does not. So the being's nature is more truly expressed through Fea rather than hroa, which serves it, rather than being an equal partner.

As to subcreation - why do Elves not invent stories? They seem merely to reiterate the past, & attempt to re-create it - another example of their inability to think & act 'outside the box'? Men can invent stories, sub create 'secondary' worlds which never existed in the 'primary' world - as Tolkien does with ME- which reflects a freedom of thought, & hence of action, which is not found in Elves.

Even if Eru has to make their sub creations 'real, give them form, it doesn't mean he originated them, merely gave them form. The alternative would be to make men a kind of aspect of Eru, Men are the part that think the thoughts & Eru the part that makes them 'real' within Arda.

As I said, the later writings are a problem - in the Athrabeth, the early statement that the fall of man is off stage & in the background is turned on its head, & placed centre stage, & the main reason for Eru's incarnation. We end up with a change from one of Tolkien's primary concepts - Death as a 'gift' becomes death as a 'realease from suffering'.I ts the same with a lot of the stuff in Myths Transformed, which is an attempt to force the Legendarium to fit with modern scientific notions

[HerenIstarion]

Dear davem, I'm as well enjoying this clash, like of which I haven't had for ages, so do not fear the consensus, we can well shift subject once more (which I'm inclined to do right away), as we have already lost titular 'evil things' of the thread someplace around page 2 , unless some board authority feels inclined in his/her turn to close this thread for being completely off topic.

On the other hand, that is one of the outcomes of the debate (and fine by me at that) - new topics arisen to be inflicted upon innocent and unfortunate bystanders in a shape of a protracted discussion. So, my kind sir, let us break some more toothpicks around new subject(s):

As to Fea & Hroa. The point is, the existence of the Fea is not dependent on the hroa, but the hroa is dependent on the fea

Fair enough. And true too. But, nevertheless, it does not mean that hroa is under the complete control of the fëa, even with elves (and in the case of the Maiar - Gandalf, for instance). And for humans that is not the case whatsoever. Ever pondered how much of one's 'harmony with the world' comes as a result of good digestion and a large dinner recently consumed? Besides, the whole novelty of the existence of the Children is stated (see my previous) in union of fea and hroa. The Divine Conception of Children was based on having two in harmony, so you can not have an elf or a human in a form of fëa only - it'd be either a ghost or an apparition of a kind. In later writings you are so unhappy with , it is stated that Men are supposed to lift up their material bodies into eternity of the spirit, as was already said.

Besides, hroa can well exist without fëa (or the kind of fëa we usually mean under the name thereof) - the case being animal originated orks, animals and plants. But that last remark takes root merely in my nastiness, for I understand you were talking about people of free will in the case, so do not pay heed to it

But those were minor points. Main clasp still to come:

Subcreation re:

As to subcreation - why do Elves not invent stories? They seem merely to reiterate the past, & attempt to re-create it

Several weak points in your argument, as far as I'm any judge (or why do I believe the ability of subcreation is expressed equally in all Children of Eru, even in those of adoption - i.e. dwarves):

1. Where is it stated that ability of sub-creation has to be expressed mainly as an art of literature? Music is better example, I believe. The main subcreative act - the Music of The Ainur - is not expressed in words but in melodies. It is truth of our world that in the beginning there was a word, but for ME in the beginning there was a note. Both Elves and Dwarves are known to create music. (and elven is more perfect than anything humans have hitherto shown ability of contriving.

2. For all we know (for what we have to ponder about is History of Middle Earth, and not history of its scribes), elves may be capable of literature as well (they certainly are good at poetry), and Galadriel may have been holding soirees for elven literati every second Friday, and Elrond may have been equivalent of elvish Nebula Prize holder for his stories about mysterious flying crystal bowls or something.

3. Clause 2 was pure speculation of course. But, if we listen to Professor himself on the subject, in his On Fairy Stories he states (unfortunately, I do not have the book along to provide you with the direct quote) that elves are better at fantasy than humans are, and fantasies created by elves are perfect at suspending disbelief, so the human observer inside one is unable to say whether is he/she in the primary world or in secondary one. Subcreation in its full for you to enjoy.

4. Besides all of the above, both Elves and Dwarves are quite capable in Architecture and Arts (and more so than humans but Numenoreans). It is too as good expression of sub-creative ability as any. It is such a good example, that existence of carved orkish knife of Grishnakh's on the fields of Rohan lead me to believe him to be one of the fëa-having orks as opposed to main bulk of pure parrots

So, if all Children of Eru are capable of subcreation, which I do believe is the case, such an ability can not be the proof of special human freedom

later writings re:

Yes, much is altered in Tolkien's later writings. The difficulties arisen from such a situtation are usually solved by yours truly on the following ground - the whole of the legendarium is presented as collection of legends and stories by different authors. There is no need for different authors to agree on every point they recount. Joan of Arc's story described by pro and contra oriented chroniclers may differ to the great extent. So, there is a place in my head both for flat earth, two threes theory and round earth within solar system as well. But I usually tend to lean harder on what is written later, true.

[davem]

Fea & hroa may be totally integrated in Elves, but that doesn't imply 'equality'. In all cases, even the'animal originated' orcs, the hroa is a vehicle for the animating 'force' & cannot think or act for itself - either the fea directs it, or some external force does. An hroa without a fea or directing will would just stay where it was. The 'corruption' of Morgoth which runs through matter would set 'limits' on the way it could function, & may influence the fea in choices it makes, may even, as it would have some degree of 'negative' effect on the functioning of senses & brain function, affect thinking, but Fea proceeds from Eru, & has some kind of innate sense of (to put it crudely) 'right' & wrong', so the individual would still be either attempting to actualise Eru's themes or Morgoth's - even if they made mistakes, they would be trying to bring one or the other into being.

As to sub creation, In the Fairy Stories essay Tolkien seems to be saying that the 'highest' form of sub creation is the creation of 'secondary worlds' in emulation of our creator - He creates, we 'sub create'. He gives life to sentient beings in this primary world, we give a 'secondary' form of life to creaures in 'secondary' worlds of our creation.

We find a complete lack of any mention of Elvish novelists & storytellers in ME, but why would Tolkien not have at least one stroryteller, at least one great Elvish epic. Elves don't create mythologies, & for someone with such a love of mythology as Tolkien, why is this? Yes, they have poems, but these are recountings of historical events, not new ones. They sing & compose, but to what extent is this merely recounting in 'sound' of what they have experienced? Feanor creates the Silmarils, but not jet engines -ie he produces artifical jewels, which are simply the result of taking the idea of naturally existing jewels to the ultimate extreme. The Elves do that, attempt to perfect what exists, not bring into being wholly new things. They are attempting to manifest, make real, the themes of the Music which run through the creation. Men, in their 'true' subcreation, bring into being things which never did exist & were not laid down in the Music, even in potential.

Architecture & other arts are intended to 'perfect' this world, & not bring wholly new secondary worlds into being, & perfection of this world, in accordance with their understanding of the Music is what drives Elves' every action. I wonder to what extent his statements in fairy stories about Elvish dramatic skill can be applied to the Elves of ME, as in the essay the fairies he is talking about seem much more like the Elves of folklore - but I take your point on board & will think about it.

At the same time, when the Fellowship enter Lorien, they aren't sure whether they're in their own world or have been transported back to the Elder Days: but the Elves there have not made a totally 'new' thing in Lorien, they have simply attempted to recreate the way (they believe) the world once was. So, again, we're not dealing with them 'sub creating' a 'secondary world' but reiterating what was, or what they think 'should' have been, actualising the Music in the world.

So, this 'Elvish Drama' they find themselves participating in, & which they find absolutely convincing ,is in many ways a 'fantasy', woven by the magic of the Elven Ring, & so not 'real' or 'natural' it is nature turned into 'Art' & embalmed by magic. But that does not make it a 'lie' on the Elves part, as they aren't attempting to 'deceive' the Fellowship - well, no more than they are attempting to deceive themselves. It's a kind of subcreation, but dependent on magic to be convincing, whereas men's sub creation is a product of pure imaginataion, & is passed from mind to mind through story, with both storyteller & hearer 'co-creating' the secondary world - the storyteller supplies the story, but the imagery is supplied by the listener or reader from their own experience - hence the 'secondary world'is made up from the 'leaf mould' of the hearer's mind. So, not only is the 'secondary' world is made to seem more 'real' & convincing because of the 'primary' world elements the hearer has used to build it up in their imagination, but the 'primary' world is also made more 'magical' as a consequence of elements of it being used to form the 'secondary' world. Elvish 'enchantment' doesn't seem to work in the same way, as the person entering into the Elves' world is not a co-creator in the same way, & loses a lot of their 'freedom' in the process.



The problem with taking the later writings as being the products of different hands, is that so often they completely contradict other writings - this is fine, when one set of writings is, say, by Men & another by Elves. But when two contradictory writings are both by Elves, a problem arises. The Sun, for instance - did it pre-exist the earth, or was it produced from the last fruit of Laurelin? Elvish accounts say both, & one must be wrong. To step outside ME for a moment, its clear that this kind of contradiction was the reason Tolkien never finished the Silmarillion, & got sidetracked into philosophical & metaphysical debate - however insightful & beautiful some of that dabate may be.

[HerenIstarion]

No lowering of arms, indeed

Fea proceeds from Eru, & has some kind of innate sense of (to put it crudely) 'right' & wrong',

With what we gently land into the already quoted criteria of "in times of doubt man must trust his own wisdom..." etc.

By the way, it is not crudely put, it is how I believe it is.

Sub creation re (again):

Now that I think of it, (and if we hold AFAA as the truest account of what there is), it seems to me humans are also sub-creating in the same mode as elves do (for I agree with your points of [ME] elvish sub-creation as intended on preservation). Just humans are sub-creating in a mode of 'what should be', i.e., comparing what they see here in the primary world with what the Arda Remade will be like. So, again, we are as near a consensus as it may be. For, in a sense, the things they are [re]producing may indeed be called new, since they are not there as yet. But again, the novelty is in the eye of the beholder - for if we try to be so daring as to look from Eru's point of view, such a novelty is again a part of original plan, in which Man's part is to help bring Arda Remade about.

To put it more straight - the elves model in their subcreation things as they have been and men things as they might yet be. The modes are similar, sources apart. But from the eternal plane - where the whole Universe with all of its might have beens is laid bare before Eru, who have created it all, there is no mention of anything really new again

I operate with mental images better with words, seemingly, so let us have another picture - imagine a child bringing its father some gadget bought as present. It may gladden father's heart to get it, and it is new thing in his homestead, but if we investigate deep enough, it may be found that money the gadget was bought with was given by the father to his child just the other day. So, in a sense, father has bought his own present. And expression of child's freedom in this picture would be that child was able to buy, for instance, cigarettes for the same money. It was not limited in its actions in that aspect, for there was no instruction, but act of free will (even if it was expressed as crudely as 'pa, give me five bucks, I'm going to buy you a present') and though the purchase of the present would have been in accordance with father's will, and one of tobacco would have been not.

but dependent on magic to be convincing

But suppose for an instance that you share my theory as of magical ability in ME being as natural as being good at throwing darts or cooking omelets? Than the whole point is again - humans and elves are sub-creating in the same way, just their inspiration source is different. Replace 'magic' up there with 'literary skill', and the general meaning is not changed a bit.

and, can't stand the temptation, so here comes a sidekick:

but not jet engines

Which are to the great extent repetition of the propelling principle well known to some obscure octopussies down there on the ocean floor. And sonars used by bats and dolphins for thousands of millenia. And so forth. So, apart from the wheel, which must have been known to elves too, we are at large repeating what is natural too. By the way, natural jewels are hardly distingushible from mere pebbles. It takes some work on them to look like jewels...

But that does not have much to do with our current topic, so sidekick it must remain

[davem]

Of course, if we go with Meister Eckhart, then God is seen as constantly creating Past, Present & Future - so the past is not something that 'was' & is 'set', but is being 'created' constantly - so God is a permanent creator of all things - even us, including our past. God is constantly creating me, as I was, as I am, as I will be. I am continually being created by God. & so is everything else. For Eckhart, God is only 'aware' of us, of anything, to the extent that it reflects His mind & will - so in a sense, He doesn't 'register' evil, as it is not of Him. He only 'creates' & sustains what is good. What this would mean for an individual would be that if the individual was to give themselves over wholly to evil, so that there was no 'good' att all in them, God would no longer be aware of them, cease to create them, & they would then cease to be.

To get back to the Legendarium, this would mean that if an individual was to align themselves completely with Melkor's theme, Eru would no longer 'hear' them (because effectively, we are all 'singing' one theme or the other by our very existence & the choices we make. So, with Sauron & Saruman, at their death, they disappear in smoke blown away on the Wind. They have committed themselves to 'singing' Melkor's theme, till in the end Eru no longer hears them, is no longer aware of them, & He is no longer aware that there is anyone there in need of being created - so they just 'cease'. It is not 'judgement, condemnation & damnation' it is simply that they have made their 'existence' invisible.

This would perhaps account for the way Arda is to be renewed at the end. Eru will command the Music to be re-sung, desclare the Music to all present, but the themes will all be ones that reflect his 'mind' & nature. He will no longer be aware of, or sustain any contrary themes, so Arda will be renewed. But new things, things no in the original Music will be included, because the will be in accord with the Music, & therefore in accord with the mind of Eru.

I see magic as 'natural' to Elves (&Valar & Maiar), but not to Men, so I would still say that men's 'subcreation' is not the same as the Elves' - Men sub create secondary worlds without it, Elves seem to depend on it. So we have too different kinds of subcreation, but, as you say, with the same motivation. But Elves subcreation can be for the Elves alone - or even for an individual Elf - ie, it can bew complete without the need for any co-creating mind. The Elves sub create Lorien for themselves, men may wander in, but it is not created for men. Galadriel's desire is for a realm where flowers & trees do not die', not to create a place where others will believe they don't. Men's (as Tolkien's) sub creation requires the co-creation of an audience. In other words, the difference between the two kinds of sub creation is the lack of a need for active participation of the viewer in creating the Elves' art. Their art simply is, whether there is anyone to witness it or not. Human subcreation (in its 'highest' form - the creation of a secondary world in the mind) requires participation from the reader/hearer to make it effective. So, the Elves merely require 'magic' - natural though that may be to them - men require other participating minds.

Its true that natural gems look like rocks, but the gemstone does exist in potential within the stone, it only has to be brought out & cut. A jet engine, does not exist in potential - the flight of a bird or the movement of a ship would not inspire the mental leap to a jet engine, or the explosive power of a volcano would not inspire the mental leap to a gun or to a nuclear bomb - not to those commited to actualising Eru's themes. They may exist in potential in Melkor's theme, but that would require a commitment to that theme, which the Elves never made - not even Feanor & his sons.

But now I look like contradicting myself - because these 'new' things I'm saying only men can create could have been present in potential in Melkor's theme. Yet, perhaps the answer is that Elves (&Valar & Maiar) are attempting to actualise the themes in their 'purest' forms, without excess variation & invention, while men can take what the themes contain, & are willing to experiment with them, & explore what is possible - after all, while the Noldor create the greatest gems, they do it out of a desire to bring greater beauty into the world - it has little 'practical' application. Morgoth seeks to destroy, to consume Arda, Sauron to control it. Men, on the other hand, are seeking to experiment, to change, to open new possibilities.

So, even if every potential possibility is contained in the contending themes, only men will have the freedom of thought to make use of those possibilities.

[HerenIstarion]

Well, if I were calling up to Eckhart, it was unconsciously so, for I've tried to lean on Tolkien for the most part . It may be counted as a compliment to yours truly, if my conclusions somehow parallel his. Thanks a lot

Magic re: point taken. It may well be the case. So, it may be summarised as:

Magic is natural to those who exhibit ability to it (the group to contain elves and [incarnate] maiar) [It is my personal opinion that such an innate ability should not be called amgic at all]. It is, as any innate ability is, one of the tools in realization of creatures' likeness to its Creator in things it is entitled to, among which is subcreative capacity. The ability to subcreation is inherent ot all children of Eru. Elves remodel the Past, with Preservation in view as the main ends of it. Men seek Change in their subcreative excersises (reasons to be given below).

Participation of other minds in human subcreation re: may well be the case.

Jet engines re: nastiness and sidekicks get traditional reward of competent rebuff. But, on the other hand, if we again lean on Tolkien, such a thing as a jet engine would have been clearly condemned as Morgoth's invention indeed. (cf steel dragons and machines in the siege of Gondolin in the first versions of the story and description of technocivilisation allegedly invented by goblins in later times as stated in The Hobbit, also Mythopoeia, or Philomythus to Misomythus)

Freedom re:

So, even if every potential possibility is contained in the contending themes, only men will have the freedom of thought to make use of those possibilities.

in which we come back to Atrabeth again, where those possibilities and freedom of thought in actualasing those are, by implication, stated to be the built-in image or pattern the men carry inside them of the Arda Remade:

'Is it, then, a vision of what was designed to be when Arda
was complete - of living things and even of the very lands and
seas of Arda made eternal and indestructible, for ever beautiful
and new - with which the fëar of Men compare what they see
here? Or is there somewhere else a world of which all things
which we see, all things that either Elves or Men know, are only
tokens or reminders?'

Sounds even a bit platonic, then . The most explicit hint of Heaven ever to be found in Tolkien, as far as I know.

Being textual evidence, it can not be gainsaid. So, I again stress upon novelty as in the eye of the beholder - new things men bring about being new this side of the turnpike. Hence human longing, inability to stay quiet at most blessed places, constant seek for something new, to be enjoyed briefly and than thrown away, for everything reminds, but nothing is the real thing. And which may well underlie all of human subcreation. And such a disharmony being the result of the Fall (for otherwise, the bringing of 'new' things would be conscious, with the clear purpose in mind, but for the Fall, of which (in ME) the Death is a release.

But well, I have to agree, this side of said turnpike of death inevitably looks new even when Men are not conscious what are they about at all. But it is intended novelty - intended by Eru with direct insertion of human theme into the great Music before time.

So, human ability of novelty is destined as well as elven ability of preservation. Both are stated as each races' respective function. When I'm designed to do new things, and new things I do are designed by the same to design me, with clear goal in mind (of bringing Arda Remade into being) are they new to Him who designed them? For they are certainly new to me, and my mates (and if this novelty you've tried to indicate, than we have nothing to argue about in this respect). But back to design and function - extending it more, I conclude that the only freedom I can exercise when talking about my functioning is either to do it or not (when I'm an incarnate fëa, that is, I can only function without so much leisure or so much burden as the choice is, when I am an ork).

Choice, choice is the only true freedom.

Freedom to shape my life beyong the fate of Arda is built-in and predestined - for if men were tied inside old one, how could they participate in building of the new one? But as such a function is not percieved by any man of ME when alive, as they are mainly concerned with doing s of Arda, and [such a function] is rumored to be the lore of few wise men among them, then, I assume, function of 'Arda Remade builder' unfolds itself after death. Hence death, logically, is seen as means of freedom to shape one's fate beyond that of Arda and its main expression for all we know

Cheers

[davem]

Quote: Elves remodel the Past, with Preservation in view as the main ends of it. Men seek Change in their subcreative excersises (reasons to be given below).

This is central:as Flieger says, lves are effectively 'facing' into the past, yearning for what has been lost - one of Feanor's appeals is to a memory of Cuivienen, about which were wide lands which a free people might inhabit. It is a pull they all feel back to what
was. I would interpret this as being down to their innate sense of the Music - the further back one goes, the closer one gets to the Ainullindale. They are being pushed 'forward' in time, away from this ideal 'place/state' by Men, & specifically by the changes they introduce, which the Elves feel are somhow 'alien' - ie not contained in the Music. So Men are moving forward, with time, into the future, while Elves are being 'pushed backwards' into the future, away from the only place they could truly feel at peace.

This leads increasingly to a 'mis-use' of magic, which, while it may be 'innate' was intended to be used for subcreation, not to halt time & 'embalm'. Their sub creations become increasingly 'fixed', & less truly (in a primary or secondary sense) alive . The sense one gets is that a 'perfect', in Elven eyes, subcreation would be a world which was frozen in a state of eternal 'perfection', unchanging, one which they would simply stand in awe of forever. But this is a denial of life - which includes change & mortality. Change beyond the world is an alien concept for Elves, simply because the remain within the world, so the world is all they have, & all their hopes are bound within the circles of the world. Men's perspective (conscious or unconscious) takes in this 'extra' dimension, that beyond the world there is 'more than memory'. There is a continuation of life, & of sub-creativity beyond the world.

Even the Elves most 'metaphysical ' speculation is limited to Arda - Men & Elves will live in harmony within Arda remade. Their minds are incapable of concieving an existence beyond the circles of the world. Beyond an existence within Arda Marred lies only the possibility of an existence within Arda Remade. Their minds, bound by the Music, can only concieve of eternal existence in an Arda of some kind. They can concieve of a world which is 'forever beautiful & new' (impossible, because nothing can be forever new, unlesss it is constantly changing, & that would require one 'beautiful thing' to be ceaselessly replaced by some new 'beautiful thing'. They cannot concieve of beauty in flux, in mutability, because the idea of a 'good' change to something new & unthought of is alien to them. The only 'change' they would consider 'good' would be a change that took them 'back'' to the way things were.

Men certainly can, & do, seek to bring into being things contained in Melkor's themes, because both themes contain 'potentials/possibilities'. But in a sense, they are not bound by the Music, so while an Elf would have to choose one theme or the other to actualise, men have the freedom to pick & choose, & would be judged by Eru not on which theme they align themselves to & attempt to make 'real' but rather on what they do with what they take from either theme, because Elves cannot introduce change into the world, so they have a choice only between 'good' & 'evil', whereas men can bring good out of evil, as can Eru.

Men's role in rebuilding Arda is played out both while in the world & beyond the circles of the world. Even if Eru knows everything Men will do before they do it, that knowledge is not necessarally contained within the Music. Eru must know things not contained in the original, or changed themes, if men can introduce change in Arda. So Elves & Valar do not know the whole mind of Eru, or the whole fate of the World - they do not know what happens to Men after death, so even to the Valar not everything is known, or can ever be known, about Arda - even if to Eru it already is.

Quote:Hence human longing, inability to stay quiet at most blessed places, constant seek for something new, to be enjoyed briefly and than thrown away, for everything reminds, but nothing is the real thing. And which may well underlie all of human subcreation. And such a disharmony being the result of the Fall (for otherwise, the bringing of 'new' things would be conscious,

Not necessarally. It could be down simply to the fact that Men were never 'told' what the 'ideal' was & are struggling to find out, making many abortive attempts in the process. Or it could be that Eru has only granted them a general idea of the kind of thing he wants, & is leaving the final form to them.