Evil things

[HerenIstarion]

Free will re:

Eru states that none may change the music in his despite - not that none may change the Music at all. Men are not bound by the Music. If Men had no freedom to change it they too would, knowingly or unknowingly, also be bound by it.

um. I reckon you missed my point. I was driving at total freedom of Men yet already contained in the Music, for Music contains everything. Men leave boundaries of Arda and go out of the Music when they die, but while they live, they are inside Music, and whatever change they may bring about is already in it (from eru's point of view at least, for He is omniscient). Why such a thing does not eliminate their, once again, total freedom, is [crudely] given mental image to above

Thing is, I can't see Tolkien creating a world where true free will did not exist - at least for Men

No need to hurt one's eyes , for both elves and men are given free will. Thing is, it is defined by the Music, not forced by it.

Magic re:

If only certain individuals posess an ability it is not 'normal' because its not the 'norm'

As far as I may judge, there is no such a thing as norm. Let us suppose, I'm bad at poetry, but I'm good at cookery, whilst some other chap may be my opposite. Than I will be more agile and skilled with pan than with pen, and, even though we both can be tought each other's crafts, the point is in gift, and he will never make omelets of the refined taste I'm able of contriving, while my sonnets will never acquire such a flavour as his may boast of.

That is what is given. But what counts is application. If I use my omelets to throw at people and hurt them, and he his sonnets to inspire bloodshed and intolerance or whatever, we both are misapplying our natural abilities to achieve improper ends. And while omelets and sonnets are not bad things in themselves, we give them bad name in the case

is the individual acting out of their own nature, or against it?

I should rather say, as with gift to cook omelets and write sonnets, person's nature is what is given him/her (what with all matter of Arda already Marred by Morgoth). What he/she does with it is what counts. And to measure propriety of actions against there is a moral law, which is expressed with Tolkien as follows:

by Aragorn

'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'

by Hama

'Yet in doubt a man of worth will trust to his own wisdom

[davem]

And yet, freedom to change the Music is implied by Eru's statement that none may change the Music in his despite. He will allow changes to be made, if he permits it. If the fall of Numenor is not in the Music - which I don't think it is - Eru has permittted a change to occur - though not the one the Numenoreans desired or foresaw. The Music is then following a different course because of Men's actions, which were not part of the Music. We note that Eru didn't take away the Numenorean's freedom to assail Valinor, merely changed the result of that act. Of course Men cannot make a change which Eru does not permit - he could hurl a thunderbolt - but he has given Men the freedom to act outside the doom of the Music. Elves, Valar & Maiar can choose which of the themes they will attempt to bring into being - Eru's/the Valar's or Melkor's, but the Music is a fate to them. Men are not bound to choose either, Though within the World determined & defined by the Music, they are limited in what choices they can make - natural laws - however extensive those laws may be, will limit how far outside the box they can think & act, but it does not set a limit on their freedom or fate - which lies outside Arda anyway. It is one with this freedom that they remain only a little time within the world. Without one race who can act beyond the confines of the Music, there would not be much point in Arda having a physical existence at all, & everything could have been sorted out in Heaven, without all the pain & messiness.

I take your point on magic, but the 'Norm' in ME is not Magic, as most people can't do it. Those who can are rare, & their 'skill' in using it is limited & defined by whatever talents Eru has given them. So, if some beings can perform what we would call 'magical' acts, then actually it isn't magic, it is innate, natural ability. So, 'magick' in the sense that Magicans use the term is something 'unnatural', against their nature, & against Eru's will - who could/would have given them whatever abilities he felt they needed or had a right to. To take more power/magical ability than Eru has gifted them with, is to go against not only His will, but against their own nature. Saruman 'falls' because he is seduced into desiring & amassing power which he has no right to. In other words, he's not 'bad' because he can do magic, but because the magic he's doing in not part of his nature - so 'unnatural'. In that sense he is a magician, while Gandalf is not - even the Ring is given to him in order to help him in his task - so he doesn't 'take' it, & he only uses it in the course of performing the task he is sent to do. Saruman not only takes power he which is not natural to him, he rejects the task he was sent to perform, & takes on another task which is not his.

[Nirvana II]

ok, in the Music Iluvatar gives freedom, life, and a place to live for everything right?????So that includes freedom of choice.........i think

[HerenIstarion]

Since we keep on repeating the same points all over with different wording, I'll try to pinpoint it all:

Changes in the Music (or freedom):

1. H-I - changes are allowed, but already contained in the Music all along, though fully percieved as such by Eru alone. All races of free will (Elves, Men and even Valar, though the latter are more bound by what each of them was singing before time), have freedom of choice in a likewise manner. Men's different freedom is mainly expressed in a way they die. Everything which happens within Arda is already in the Music. New things are brought into it by Eru, but are seen as new by His creatures, for Eru is omniscient and was aware of Himself going to put them in all along (even when he uses some creature as his tools)

2. davem - changes are allowed, and are totally new to the Music. Only Men are allowed to bring such a change about, whilst Valar and Eldar have only freedom of choice between different threads of the Music, which they aknowledge as threads of the Music and consciously choose between. Not everything which happens within Arda is already in the Music. Men (directly or indirectly, when, for instance, they force Eru to destroy Numenor) bring new things into it

If I has expressed your opinions erroneously, pray correct.

Well, opinions are similar in some ways, but there are differences as well. Why I believe my statements to be true as opposed to yours is as follows:

1. Elves and Men are in themselves the change in Music. The mere fact of their existence is change in itself

2. There is no textual evidence of conscious distinction made by Elves (like, hey, this oboe theme is more to my taste than that fiddle, let us follow it). They make their decisions according to their own wisdom, which is measured against standards equal for both Men and Elves. (see quote above)

3. There is no textual evidence of Valar conscious distinction after the Music is over. It is stated they 'just' sang along, and only after the were shown the vision, with a kind of an eye-opener the knew what they were singing was the World. Afterwards, they, just as elves and men, act according to their own wisdom (for instance, when Aule makes dwarves, or when Iavanna asks for Ents, realisation of "it must have been part of my song all along" comes only after the deed itself)

4. There is no textual evidence of conscious distinction by Men, or aknowledging something like "oh, some drum solo would suit in this score nicely", they equally act according to their own wisdom

5. For entries 2-4,a s a summary - the way judgement is made is similar in all three cases, so logically extending it a bit, one has to conclude the kind of freedom each of the races posses are similar as well. The standard of Good and Evil they measure their choices against is one and the same (see quote above)

6. It is stated that Man and Elves are brethren, (even bodily the same, so the intercourse brings children), the only difference is made by Gift of Eru - i.e. Death, which frees Men from the confines of the world. i.e, inverting the statement, while they are alive, they are equally bound by confines of the world as elves are

7. Eru is stated to be the cause, and all else consequence. In case Men were able of bringing new things into being, the maxim is inverted (for instance, in case of Numenor), and Men are cause and Eru consequence, which is likewise never backed up by textual evidence (and, as far as my judgement reaches, impossible to be put into "consciously so [Christian- H-I] in the revision" piece of work


Now for Magic

H-I Magic (given such a name by ignorant, but not by the bearer him/herself) is part of innate abilities of some of M.E. inhabitants. As an ability it is neither good or bad in itself, but part of bearer's neture. Nature, in itself, is also neither good or bad in itself. "magical" character is defined as good or bad because of application he/she makes of his/her nature and abilities. As above, they have to be measured against uniform standard of Good and Evil, and if not in accordance with good, they are evil, still staying the part of bearer's nature

davem Magic is part of innate abilities of some of M.E. inhabitants. As an ability, it must be in accordance with bearer's nature, which is good. Bearer must conform the application of his abilities with his good-in-itself nature, otherwise he/she is evil.


Why do I believe my statement to express the truth:

1. It is stated the all matter is Arda is Marred, for Morgoth have put forward part of his will into it. Therefore, all the incarnates have their Nature tainted from the very beginning of their existence

2. Both kindreds of Children (Elves and Man) have committed Original Sin in the dawn of their history, which affected their Nature in the drastic way making it even less perfect to start with then it would have been if merely tainted by Morgoth element in its matter

3. If by Nature you meant their souls only, it is to be added that both elves and men percieved their true nature as union of the two (body (hroa) and soul (fëa)), and the body is not perfect to begin with

4 Not incarnate beings (such as Valar and Maiar), which do not have tainted bodies to begin with, so, it is to be assumed, their nature is perfect, are capable of becoming Evil. If their Nature be dominant factor of their actions, that would have been impossible. Therefore, again, what defines the being as good or evil, is its actions as measured agains standard of Good and Evil (given by Eru), and such a measurement is not nature in itself, but act of will.

To have a conclusion on both issues together:

The whole being of the World is defined by Music (and is material expression of one). Therefore, anything which is in the World (including any changes occurring), is bound to be part of the Music. Music (and Being) ultimately have their source in Eru, who, thus, is the cause of everything. Eru is omniscient, so anything in the Music (and the World) is not only caused, but also known by Him. The novelty is in the eye of the beholder.

Part of the Music (and the World) is moral code of Good and Evil, which is essential part of Freedom given by Eru to certain type of his creatures. (those to have souls (fëar) of Flame Imperishable) They are free in a way that they can choose either to conform to the standard or not (i.e either to obey Him or not). The act of choosing is act of will, further expressed in their actions.

Besides, all but Men are bound to exist only within the Music (World) until it lasts. Men are given the Gift of leaving it when parted with their bodies (i.e., when dying). While inside, they are bound by the same rules as everybody else

The World, as expression of the Music, is given being, and may be called Nature. Magic, as part of the World (and therefore Music, and therefore Nature), is innate ability, but as it is with all other abilities, is expressed on different levels with different individuals. As any other ability, it is not Good or Bad in itself, but can be used in a way not in accordance with the standard of Good and Evil (as everythig else natural, as it is). Therefore, as everything else, it may be used to express Freedom given by Eru, and to be Good or Evil

That is, more or less

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

...but [the Atani] should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the music of the Ainur, which is fate to all things else.

(The Silmarillion 1 - emphasis mine)

Think Physics: If I apply force to a particle(Elves and Arda-bound Ainur), they move in a certain direction in accordance to Newton's laws of motions(the Music of the Ainur). A nonparticle - gas, for example(Men) do not adhere to the said law. Even though the force applied(the powers and the chances of the world) is already governed by Newton's laws, its effect on the gas is not. They could move in whatever direction, no matter how many forces you apply to force them into a direction you desire.

It's not the Music that Men change, it's how they react to what the Music has made. Case in point: Ar-Pharazôn's assault of Valinor. Sauron acts the way he is in Númenor because it was ordained by the Music. The Valar warning the Númenóreans is of the same nature. However, Ar-Pharazôn could have chosen not to attack Valinor, continue with the assault, or even conquer Middle-earth regardless of everything else that happens. That's the freedom of Men.

I'm not speaking about the nature of magic...well...except for this.

(so, Numenor is not toppled over by corporeal Eru with an enormous spade, but is swept over with a tide. And tide is natural event)

Yes, but the rift that caused the said tide was not natural - no other reports of giant rifts that swallowed islands were ever heard of in Middle-earth.

[HerenIstarion]

Well, good expamle, I should say, but I have to disagree nevertheless

Newtons' law is about how particles behave It does not tell you if particles have to make a choice when behaving that way (if you put your finger down on it). Now the Music is what the World is. "Beyond the Music" in a quote provided indicates exactly what it does - that Men leave the World after they die, ability not given to the Valar (Powers of the World) and Eldar (bound to last until the World lasts)

Tide re: I do believe if the modern seismologists were present, they would discover the causes to be perfectly 'natural' (something like move of teutonic slabs or whatever). and nothig to do with actions of Men whatsoever. The explanation now is in the mind of the beholder. With Eru being the cause of everything, there, in fact, is no need to have a spade, after all.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

OK, so bodies do not have a choice in their motions. so that analogy is flawed. But I was trying to refute this:

Men's different freedom is mainly expressed in a way they die.

Yes, Men are given the choice to leave the World, but in it they can also change the Music within the World.

...to shape [the Atani's] life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is fate to all things else.

(The Silmarillion 1 - emphasis mine)

"of the world" is included in the same sentence as "beyond the Music of the Ainur." It just tells me that while in the world, Men have freedom of choice - within Eru's bounds, that is -, no matter where the Music seems to push them.

"Beyond the Music" in a quote provided indicates exactly what it does - that Men leave the World after they die,

This tells me that you think the World is the Music. I think the World, and everything that happens in it, is the result of the Music. Therefore, "beyond the Music" doesn't necessarily imply "beyond the World."

Must leave now - only working on a rented computer. And I'm running out of cash.

[HerenIstarion]

This tells me that you think the World is the Music

More or less so. I'd say I think the Music is pattern World is fitted into. Why it can not be merely it's result, is absence of time as we know it in the Halls of Eru. In a sense, therefore, Music is never ceased. So to say, the world is like train moving on rails, with elves having tickets on to the terminal station while Men keep jumping out of windows now and again. (or, in more civilized mental picture, having tickets on to intermediary stations). Music is rails.

[HerenIstarion]

Dear davem

I certainly ran out of steam. It seems to me we are bound to repeat arguments already pointed out from now on (for we have turned back to actualization of the Music again). Well, I stay with my own - for I do not agree with number of your statements, least of all with the mode of the choice. Neither legendarium-changing process makes so much of confusion (find out what next man thinks God is and what thermodynamics are, and compare it with what educated theologian and educated physicist respectively may tell you - you'll get as much difference as with Tolkien's earlier and later accounts, probably more)

But, before I've started another prolonged essay, I better state that some fresh wine will do good to the bottle in the case of given thread and stop at that. Nevertheless, thank you ever so much for this invigorating piece of debate - I haven't got such a training for my wits for ages. It helped me to better shape some pieces I was dimly aware of for myself. There were points on which we agreed, too, and that is a good thing as well

Besides, since I won't be able to go online for a while hence, I thought it improper to leave you thus unanswered

With which I withdraw myself (not that I do not reserve the right to return and renew the hostilities once I feel inclined to, tricky me )

But for now, until better times

[Nirvana II]

but where in Ainulindale does it say that things can't be Evil???i mean, it doesnt say that things should be evil, nor does it say that they cant.......hurgh.......just more freedom.........

[Nirvana II]

and no Sauron's Eye not all Maiar are evil....look at Gandalf....the Maia Olorin.........wisest of them all......

[davem]

Ok Heren, (if Ithat's not overly familiar )

Responses:
1:Elves and Men are in themselves the change in Music. The mere fact of their existence is change in itself.

(response)I wouldn't call them 'changes in the Music' as at the point they appeared the Music was still coming into being - so the Children are no more 'changes' than anything else in the Music. the kind of changes I'm talking about are changes that occur in Arda, after the Creation.

2. There is no textual evidence of conscious distinction made by Elves (like, hey, this oboe theme is more to my taste than that fiddle, let us follow it). They make their decisions according to their own wisdom, which is measured against standards equal for both Men and Elves. (see quote above)

3. There is no textual evidence of Valar conscious distinction after the Music is over. It is stated they 'just' sang along, and only after the were shown the vision, with a kind of an eye-opener the knew what they were singing was the World. Afterwards, they, just as elves and men, act according to their own wisdom (for instance, when Aule makes dwarves, or when Iavanna asks for Ents, realisation of "it must have been part of my song all along" comes only after the deed itself)

(r)(Taken together)

These distinctions would not have to be 'conscious' in any way, we would be talking about something along the lines of Jung's archetypes - pre-existing patterns of thought & behaviour, which would push the beings one way or the other in an attempt to bring into manifestation the themes of the Music. They would all, Valar, Maiar & Elves have a degree of freedom of thought & action in trying to manifest those unconscious themes. But they are not attempting to manifest any new themes, merely to actualise the ones already sung in eternity.

4. There is no textual evidence of conscious distinction by Men, or aknowledging something like "oh, some drum solo would suit in this score nicely", they equally act according to their own wisdom

(r)Of course, but they are not bound by the Themes already sung, so there is a degree of freedom of action for them which the other races do not posess. To quote from Flieger (Splintered Light p52) 'Beyond this 'gift' (ie Death) Tolkien through his God figure has conferred another power on Mankind: the virtue to 'shape their life' beyond the creational design of the Music 'which is as fate to all things else'. In bestowing this capability on mortals while withholding it from the immortal Elves, Tolkien has deliberately introduced a paradox, a world guided by both fate & free will, thus increasing the tension inherent in intersecting lives & their possible effect on one another & on events...A possible distinction between them (Elves & Men) may be that Men are given the power to act beyond the Music (that is, to alter external events or circumstances), while Elves, though bound by the Music, have the freedom to make internal choices, to alter some attitude toward themselves of other creatures of Eru. They may have power over their own natures, though not over external happenings.'

6. It is stated that Man and Elves are brethren, (even bodily the same, so the intercourse brings children), the only difference is made by Gift of Eru - i.e. Death, which frees Men from the confines of the world. i.e, inverting the statement, while they are alive, they are equally bound by confines of the world as elves are

(r)No, its clearly stated that Men have the freedom to act outside the Music, 'which is as fate to all things else' as well as the gift of Death.

7. Eru is stated to be the cause, and all else consequence. In case Men were able of bringing new things into being, the maxim is inverted (for instance, in case of Numenor), and Men are cause and Eru consequence, which is likewise never backed up by textual evidence (and, as far as my judgement reaches, impossible to be put into "consciously so [Christian- H-I] in the revision" piece of work

(r)Not at all. Eru has final say in any changes men attempt to initiate. "None may change the Music in his despite'', but he will permit change in certain circumstances, & so is always in control. In a sense men's choices are like 'offerings' to Eru, to be accepted or rejected - & this would still be the case even if Eru from his position 'outside' time, in Eternity, already knew what men would offer & what his decision would be. His omniscience does not negate men's freedom - knowledge is not control or power. Eru may know what will happen, & what men will 'offer' him, but he's not making those things happen, merely observing that they happen, & then making a decision on whether to accept them or not. So, both Eru & Men are free agents.

On to Magic

1. It is stated the all matter is Arda is Marred, for Morgoth have put forward part of his will into it. Therefore, all the incarnates have their Nature tainted from the very beginning of their existence

(r) I wouldn't agree - their hroa may be marred, but their fea is not, as it is not of the matter of Arda, but proceeds from Eru, & we can't find any evidence that Morgoth infected or corrupted the nature of Eru.

2. Both kindreds of Children (Elves and Man) have committed Original Sin in the dawn of their history, which affected their Nature in the drastic way making it even less perfect to start with then it would have been if merely tainted by Morgoth element in its matter

(r) I think 'original sin' is misleading, in that neither race 'originally' defied Eru or went against any commandment of his. Some defied the Valar(Elves), or turned to Morgoth (Men), but this is not the case for all members of either race, unlike with Adam & Eve, whose 'sin' is passed down to all their decendents. Those who did 'sin' were certainly affected in a profound way, but this does not make them corrupt, as they can still choose between the themes (Elves), or make moral choices & perform moral actions (Men). The Morgoth 'element does not corrupt their essential spiritual nature, which originates with Eru, & is therefore incorruptible by any outside force - though the individual may corrupt themselves.

3. If by Nature you meant their souls only, it is to be added that both elves and men percieved their true nature as union of the two (body (hroa) and soul (fëa)), and the body is not perfect to begin with


(r)But the Hroa is neither rational nor intelligent, & is directed by the Fea.

4 Not incarnate beings (such as Valar and Maiar), which do not have tainted bodies to begin with, so, it is to be assumed, their nature is perfect, are capable of becoming Evil. If their Nature be dominant factor of their actions, that would have been impossible. Therefore, again, what defines the being as good or evil, is its actions as measured agains standard of Good and Evil (given by Eru), and such a measurement is not nature in itself, but act of will.

(r) no, because the contending themes within the Music pre-exist the manifestation of Arda, so each being, incarnate or not, divine or not, can choose which themes to attempt to actualise within Arda. They choose, but except for men, they cannot change or 'offer' up new possibilities.