How the mighty do fall!

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I think the main reason i started this topic is to ask whether Tolkein was trying to make some kind of statement about how people act these days. He himself says that he hates allegory, yet he see LotR as more applicability, this would seem to fit more into the theory. Did he mean us to think that Power is something that corrupts the human, (Elf, Miar, ect) mind.

I know it goes against everything Tolkien said in his forward, but i would like to say I’m not connecting it directly with LotR, but Hitler and his Nazis many have said that the power sent him mad. But i think we should look more into Middle Earth itself, and so I think that Tolkien is trying to show this, with so may characters turning to evil and only a few taking the 'wise' root and turning from it. Yet if you look more into it you begin to see that it is mainly the unexpected characters that resist the temptation (With the possible exception of Gandalf), The Hobbits, Faramir (Being the brother of Boromir and wanting to prove himself to his father), and others. I think that the message that runs through most of Tolkien's righting is that Power in the wrong hands can lead to disaster, but the most unlikely people can help prevent evil from completely taking over.

One could also look into Tolkien's religion, this would undoubtedly have had an effect on his work, if you read stories like David and Goliath; you see this message portrayed clearly.

[Nimiriel]

I think Tolkien is (was) clearly trying to get a lot of messages through to his readers, among them the importance of not giving in to the desire for power (or wealth). What he say in the foreword is that the story itself is not to be seen as a picturing of the WW2 or anything like that. The story is a story in itself, but it still contains lots of messages and viewpoints on the world today, society and industry.

[Bêthberry]

This is that People who were grate or mighty, are often those who fall into Evil.

Of course, it could be that the poor, the weak, and the lowly, being scared of the heights of power, splendor, and wealth, do not climb and therefore cannot fall.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

An interesting point, Bêthberry, Perhaps that is why Frodo could resist the power of the ring so much? But then again you have to look at the fact that Frodo had quite a high status in Hobbiton, as he lived at Bag end... Yet that may not be enough to corrupt him. Seeing as how he had a humble beginning in Buckland, which may go some way to explaining this

Also there is Gollum, he was a humble water hobbit, He had no high status of lordship of any kind. Yet the ring easily corrupted him. This sort of leaves the suggestion that any one can be corrupted if offered the chance of power.

There are other Characters in Tolkiens world that do not seem to go along with this pattern, Felagund for example could have stuck with his pride and sent out other to ride with Beren, but instead he himself went. That’s not perhaps the best example, but there are others.

As was said, Tolkien has tried to get many messages across in his stories, the fact that being mighty of full of wisdom does not make you impervious to Evil.

[Althern]

I think the main reason i started this topic is to ask whether Tolkein was trying to make some kind of statement about how people act these days.

As you say, Tolkien’s dislike of allegory is well known; this was stated in the letter included at the beginning of the Silmarillion. In the same letter, he went on to say that any attempt to explain a myth would necessarily use allegorical language. So while the Middle Earth myth deals above all with the description of mythical events, it is sufficiently developed enough to contain enough themes that allow readers to explore whichever allegory currently interests them.

Is there a theme of the great and good falling from power? Of course there is. Was the exploration of this theme Tolkien’s purpose for Middle Earth, or even one of his purposes? I would suggest not. Is it possible that a story is just a story? That the narrative elements primarily serve the purposes of good narrative?

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

In two words: Pride kills.

Exactly. Thus the lesson of almost all of Tolkien's works: humility.

It's not the power that corrupts. Gandalf had tremendous power, and remained uncorrupted, simply because he was humble. He recognized the fact that even with his immense power, he faced trials and challenges that he might not have been able to overcome. He had the humility to allow such a one as Denethor to treat him as an inferior, even though he was much Denethor's superior in wisdom alone, to say the least.

Those who are wise may be corrupted, those who are simple may be corrupted, those who are powerful may be corrupted, those who are weak may be corrupted. We have examples of all of these. Both of Elenrod's models of evil stem from the same source: overriding pride, and the desire to elevate oneself. All of the villains in Tolkien's works have become evil through the lust for honor and glory not due to them. Morgoth wanted to be as great as Ilúvatar, Sauron wanted to be as great as Morgoth, even Gollum desired greatness (his speech about being "The Gollum", for example). Those who remained good and righteous are those who remained humble- Sam, Merry, Aragorn, etc. They recognized that their abilities should be used for the good of others, not to further themselves, and they did not consider themselves to be any better than they were, if that.

Although, one does wonder, how did [Gandalf] resist the temptation to turn to Evil?

The answer is quite simple: humility.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

It would seem that being humble helps resist the temptation of becoming Evil. Thinking of Gollum's little speech about "Lord Sméagol" shows that he wanted the power; this would have been why the ring had such a hold over him. Even Sam was tempted by it in that he visualised himself as the savoir of the age, yet his humble roots as a gardener helped him to resist this idea. So it would seem that power did not corrupt those whom were humble. Aragorn himself did not originally want to become king, perhaps when he heard Boromirs dream he accepted that it was decided by fate or something that he was to go to Minas Tirith with the sword Anduril. But he remained humble because he still saw himself as a humble Ranger of the north.

[Rimbaud]

One of the fundaments of Tolkien's belief was displayed to be that 'the first shall be last and the last shall be first.' Which isn't a bad way of stating a rather complicated sociological point of view.

Idling with the wist of parity,

Rim