The Dior Dilemma

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I agree with Morwen T about the twins. (I think BD-"Legolas" needs a surname like Morwen T to avoid confusion with references to Legolas, the character).

A few posts above, Lindil quotes me out of context. Shame. I had just said that technically Arwen was a Peredhil and not an Elf per se. But with the qualification of "for all intents and purposes" is to say that she was indeed like an Elf at the point of her marriage, which one must accept in order to make sense of JRRT's listing of Aragorn and Arwen as one of the three pairings of Man and Eldar.

[Elmo]

Do you really think Tolkien, a devoted family man, would have Nimloth forever separated from her baby children in the after life forever?

[Lalaith]

Ah, thanks for digging up this old thing, hewhoarisesinmight...(what do they call you for short, btw?)
Now you've got me worritting about those poor babies again.

I found this on Wikipedia...

Tradition among the Nandor of Ossiriand held that they were led to the safety of the woodlands by birds and beasts, and survived.

Never heard that before. Can anyone elucidate?

[Elmo]

what do they call you for short, btw?

That idiot mostly no I think I once was called He Who either that or hwain's fine

[The Might]

Well, I've looked through the thread and noticed nobody gave any quotes on this so I will:

"Eärendil is Túor's son & father of Elros (First King of Númenor) and Elrond, their mother being Elwing daughter of Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien: so the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. "
(Letter #153)

' Dior their son, it is said, spoke both tongues: his father's, and his mother's, the Sindarin of Doriath. For he said: 'I am the first of the Peredil
(Half-elven), but I am also the heir of King Elwe, the Eluchil.' (HOME XII)

"Now fare the long days of Elfinesse unto that time when Tuor
dwelt in Gondolin; and children then had Dior the Elf," (The Book of the Lost Tales II)

'Dior the Elf' is an emendation from 'Dior then an aged Elf'. (The Book of the Lost Tales II)

Well, as seen above in the first writings on this topic Tolkien considered him an Elf clearly.
In later writings this becomes unclear. The quote from Letter #153 shows that Dior was given this choice. The question remaining is which choice did he make.

Considering what we know about him, I personally see him as an Elf. We know he was named "Thingol's Heir", and he was King of Doriath. I doubt the Elves would have accepted a Man as their ruler, even if he was the rightful heir to the throne. Also, there is one other example of a Half-Elf that rules over Elves - Elrond - and it is well known which choice he made.

[Raynor]

Also, there is one other example of a Half-Elf that rules over Elves - Elrond - and it is well known which choice he made.

Well, "technically", he was a full elf after he and Elros made their choices. After that, he was a half-elven by title only.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Well, "technically", he was a full elf after he and Elros made their choices. After that, he was a half-elven by title only.

I would quibble about that... his NATURE, his mortality/immortality, being bound to the world or destined to escape it was then fully Elven, but to call Elrond fully Elven otherwise seems... wrong. His physical human inheritance (Tuor's shoulders maybe, or Beren's eyebrows, or Bëor's toenails, or Rían's elbows... or whatever), would not have been erased by his choice. It was only the completely irreconcilable natures of Man and Elf that required a choice. In other matters, such as temperament and looks, there is no reason to suggest that would have become half-Elven by title only. Elrond favoured his Elven side, but that did not nullify that he was Man as well.

Just to quibble.

[Findegil]

The quote from the Letters is telling. That means Tolkien thought of Dior as an Half-Elf.

The quotes from the Lost Tales do not really count for anything here, since at that time Beren Dior's father was an Elf himself, so there was no question of Dior being anything else then an Elf.

The choices for the Half-Elves were granted to them by the Manwë after a long discussion of the council of the Valar after the journey of Eärendil to Valinor. At this time Dior had been killed already. I imaging that he was held in waiting in the Halls of Mandos for that time and that he was granted the choice after that decision by Manwë: Either he could stay in Mandos until the time Namo jugde him fit for a return to incarnated live or he could leave the world for ever. But how can anybody in Middel-Earth be expected to know what choise he made?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Elmo]

If that is true Dior would have gone with his wife...
What choice could the children have had, would they have automatically gone with their parents? I certainly hope so.