Inherent Evil

[Nils]

Independant observations are all I am making. I assure you that Tolkien's words, when they concern his work, are held as very important to me.

So why don't you believe that Orcs were created by Melkor?

If you consider the Silmarillion to be one of JRR's works, then why do you consider the Silmarillion a more important work than Morgoth's Ring?

What I see in Tolkien is that the Ainur, the world of Ea and everything in it proceeds directly from Tolkien, so that it is really a kind of great Thought and dream of his with a beginning and an end that takes form. Thus, everything on earth is his ultimately;

In the end he shall see that nothing is done that hath not its uttermost source in me.

Do you see now? That is my observation, that does not seem to be contradicted by anything Tolkien says, my conclusion that I have come to from his work.

But it does contradict the fall.

Tolkien was writing a myth that revealed the truth of this world. It didn't have to do with what was within Tolkien. He was not creating mere fantasy. He was trying to describe how the world actually works.

If your understanding of that quote from the Silmarillion is correct, then how could there be a 'fallen state'? If no matter what we do, we are following Eru's plan, how could anything we do be outside that plan?

The only way that I can see that quote fitting into the theme of the 'fallen state' is through the concept of sub-creation. I believe that is why Tolkien wrote so much about that topic.

Through the concept of sub-creation (Eru giving a part of his power to create to his own creation) Tolkien was able to give the created beings the ability to 'fall', while having that ability to 'fall' originating with Eru.

Each being is not some part of Eru's personality. Each being is seperate and distinct, but its powers originate with Eru's power. All Eru was telling Morgoth was that no matter what Morgoth tried to create out of the 'good' power Eru entrusted him with, the end result must be 'good'.

Morgoth tried to do his own thing and fell. That makes Morgoth evil.

Although it may appear for a time that Melkor had succeeded, Eru's creations did not have the power to corrupt the power that Eru entrusted his creation with.

If what I have talked about is the case, then every mood and way of thinking is reflected in the all-encompassing mind of Illuvatar;

It seems to me that your view is that Eru's creation do not have free will at all. They are not independent creations, they are different manefestations of Eru's own personality. In other words, creation is a physical manefestation of Eru's personality. Manwe represents this part of Eru, while Melkor represents another. That the battle between good and evil represents the battle within Eru himself.

In other words, nothing is an original creation. Clearly, this is not the case.

There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Illuvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought... for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Illuvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to deeper understanding, and increased in unison and harmony.

Just because Eru came up with the idea of the Ainu and used his thoughts to create them does not mean that each Ainu represents a component of Eru's personality.

Forgive me for using the Silm and not a later source, but as it is in fact the foundation of Tolkien's literature and a damn relevent piece of writing, I felt it would be fitting to use this passage to exemplify what I am saying.

Nice sarcasm, but at least you are recognizing the fact that Tolkien did have other writings.

It occurs to me that perhaps you are over-parallelling the Eru of Ea to the Christian God.

It seems to me that Tolkien was heavily influenced by his Christian beliefs. As I said earlier, Tolkien was trying to reveal how things actually worked in his myth. Since Tolkien was a Christian, he tried to portray how Christianity says things work.