Are Tolkiens Books Sexist? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

bombur · 09-10-2002, 01:53 AM

I did NOT write that to provoke argument.

As I DID read the earlier parts of this discussion, I decided to leave that out from my first message in order NOT to provoke argument.

I am quite aware that Tolkien would not have approved that interpretation and most certainly did not intend such to be made.

In Tolkiens unions between man and elf, the elven woman (no exeptions - a woman) is typically so pure that one is almost unable to look at her without sunglasses... The man seems to be more or less a "noble savage" with slight inferiority complex... Perhaps this has got something to do with personal life of that couple on whose tombstone has been inscribed the words Luthien and Beren.

Tolkien in my opinion, especially compared to his contemporaries, gives women charachters genuine importance. So what if this is result of holding ones own spouse in very very very great regard? If it is I emphasise. In my opinion the saga in general manages to be exeptionally egalitarian in this regard. Possibly in part due to this balancing feature.

Now, taking all this into account, think of Luthien and Beren. Luthien goes with Beren to fulfill the task imposed by her father. She is the stronger of the two in all ways save swordplay, I'd say. They do great heroics. They live happily ever after.

What does Arwen do in exactly similar situation? She sends Aragorn to do great heroics and occasionally sends encouragement.

I see only two alternate interpretations. Firsat one is, that she is pure and beautiful as Tolkien surely intended. Mystical perhaps. But she is not person of strong will, great skills and wisdom like Luthien. (Lack of wisdom at least is supported by the fact that she grasps the tragedy of mens mortality only when Aragorn is dying.)

The secong alternative is in my opinion that she is strong in will, skill and wisdom, but CHOOSES to send ones knight to do great things to win ones hand. Much in the same way that the strong willed women on pedestal do in Arthurian legend. (And that is what I as male gender equality activist DO call devious manipulation.)

Thus I just left her out from the list of strong, independet and active female charachters and hoped no-one would notice. I prefer the first interpretation.

Janne Harju

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09-10-2002, 01:53 AM	#11
bombur Wight Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: finland Posts: 126	I did NOT write that to provoke argument. As I DID read the earlier parts of this discussion, I decided to leave that out from my first message in order NOT to provoke argument. I am quite aware that Tolkien would not have approved that interpretation and most certainly did not intend such to be made. In Tolkiens unions between man and elf, the elven woman (no exeptions - a woman) is typically so pure that one is almost unable to look at her without sunglasses... The man seems to be more or less a "noble savage" with slight inferiority complex... Perhaps this has got something to do with personal life of that couple on whose tombstone has been inscribed the words Luthien and Beren. Tolkien in my opinion, especially compared to his contemporaries, gives women charachters genuine importance. So what if this is result of holding ones own spouse in very very very great regard? If it is I emphasise. In my opinion the saga in general manages to be exeptionally egalitarian in this regard. Possibly in part due to this balancing feature. Now, taking all this into account, think of Luthien and Beren. Luthien goes with Beren to fulfill the task imposed by her father. She is the stronger of the two in all ways save swordplay, I'd say. They do great heroics. They live happily ever after. What does Arwen do in exactly similar situation? She sends Aragorn to do great heroics and occasionally sends encouragement. I see only two alternate interpretations. Firsat one is, that she is pure and beautiful as Tolkien surely intended. Mystical perhaps. But she is not person of strong will, great skills and wisdom like Luthien. (Lack of wisdom at least is supported by the fact that she grasps the tragedy of mens mortality only when Aragorn is dying.) The secong alternative is in my opinion that she is strong in will, skill and wisdom, but CHOOSES to send ones knight to do great things to win ones hand. Much in the same way that the strong willed women on pedestal do in Arthurian legend. (And that is what I as male gender equality activist DO call devious manipulation.) Thus I just left her out from the list of strong, independet and active female charachters and hoped no-one would notice. I prefer the first interpretation. Janne Harju