enemity between dwarves and elves - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

01-10-2001, 12:16 AM

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why was there enemity between dwarves and elves

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Saulotus · 01-10-2001, 01:15 AM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: enemity between dwarves and elves

Depends on which level you wish to consider.

One one; when the dwarves (specifically the petty-dwarves) arrived they were hunted like animals by the Elves.

On another level is the general arrogance displayed by the Elves.

On a third; you could even equate in sibling rivalry (an adopted familial relationship one at that).

On a side note related to a different thread (mostly to Lindil and Mithadan who have seen Maeglin): this also fits in with the retention of Eol and his servitude. The fermentation of distrust is implied from his contact with the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, and now has an even stronger hidden agenda (and one of the reasons that it was retained, [there are others not quite as subtle as this]).

Take your pick as to the beginnings of the matter. This does not even address the Battle of Beleriand with Azghal or the sack of Menegroth as additional fuel to the fire, nor the closure of Moria even later.

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Raw · 01-11-2001, 02:04 PM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: enemity between dwarves and elves

Wow. I didn't know that, i knew that it was enemity between them but not why. Where did you find out that? In the Silmarillion? And, is there any other good books about middle-earth? I have seen some of them, but how are they?

/RAW

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Mhoram · 03-19-2002, 09:02 AM

Yes, the Silmarilion covers all that somewhat. I've always looked to the sack of Menegroth as the main seed of enemity, but there are lots I guess.

Dwarin Thunderhammer · 03-21-2002, 10:44 AM

I think you guys missed possibly the most devastating effect on the relationship between elves and dwarves. Thingol asked the Dwarves to put a silmaril in a necklace. When he refused to pay them the Dwarves destroyed beleriand. Pretty hurtfull to a relationship if you ask me.

Secondly I think the elves were jealous of the Dwarves craftmanship. After feanor it seems the Elves skill in metal and jewels went downhill. They even asked Telchar to forge some of their greatest weapons.

Bruce MacCulloch · 03-21-2002, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Thingol asked the Dwarves to put a silmaril in a necklace. When he refused to pay them the Dwarves destroyed beleriand.

Aaah, but you seem to have left out why he didn't pay them. The payment they demanded was the Nauglamir itself, the necklace that they had just put the Silmaril in.

Kuruharan · 03-21-2002, 05:22 PM

Actually, on the whole, except for a few exceptions, the Elves and Dwarves just did not like each other very much. The Elves thought that the Dwarves were ugly, ill-tempered, bow-legged midgits. The Dwarves thought that the Elves were a bunch of stuck up, self-satisfied, weedy tree-huggers. Usually when they "got along" they were just profiting from each other.

Note that the only reason that the Dwarves visited Doriath at all was to make money, they were not going for the wonderful company.

Mhoram · 03-21-2002, 08:17 PM

Quote:

I think you guys missed possibly the most devastating effect on the relationship between elves and dwarves. Thingol asked the Dwarves to put a silmaril in a necklace. When he refused to pay them the Dwarves destroyed beleriand. Pretty hurtfull to a relationship if you ask me.

aka, the sack of menegroth. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Kalimac · 03-21-2002, 10:21 PM

Of course, if you want to go right back to the beginning, it's a cosmic case of sibling rivalry. The Dwarves were created by Aule, who was in such a hurry to see what the children of Iluvatar would be like that he decided to make some himself; Iluvatar was angry at his presumption and though he decreed that the Dwarves should be allowed to live, that they should sleep under the earth for a while, since Iluvatar did not want these interlopers coming before the Elves whom he had intended as firstborn. Iluvatar tells Aule "But when the time comes I will awaken them [the Dwarves] and they shall be to thee as children; and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, children of my adoption and the children of my choice."

With a divine/parental sendoff like that, it's no wonder the Dwarves were a little touchy about the Elves - and vice versa, of course.

01-10-2001, 12:16 AM	#1
nine nazguls Guest Posts: n/a	enemity between dwarves and elves <font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased Posts: 4</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> why was there enemity between dwarves and elves </p>

03-21-2002, 10:44 AM	#5
Dwarin Thunderhammer Khazad-Doomed Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: The Green Dragon Posts: 182	I think you guys missed possibly the most devastating effect on the relationship between elves and dwarves. Thingol asked the Dwarves to put a silmaril in a necklace. When he refused to pay them the Dwarves destroyed beleriand. Pretty hurtfull to a relationship if you ask me. Secondly I think the elves were jealous of the Dwarves craftmanship. After feanor it seems the Elves skill in metal and jewels went downhill. They even asked Telchar to forge some of their greatest weapons. __________________ “Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd aimênu!” Come visit The Rohan RPG! The only RPG to fanfic on the downs! Without law there can be no freedom. Without justice there can be no law.

03-21-2002, 05:22 PM	#7
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,593	Actually, on the whole, except for a few exceptions, the Elves and Dwarves just did not like each other very much. The Elves thought that the Dwarves were ugly, ill-tempered, bow-legged midgits. The Dwarves thought that the Elves were a bunch of stuck up, self-satisfied, weedy tree-huggers. Usually when they "got along" they were just profiting from each other. Note that the only reason that the Dwarves visited Doriath at all was to make money, they were not going for the wonderful company. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

03-21-2002, 10:21 PM	#9
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Of course, if you want to go right back to the beginning, it's a cosmic case of sibling rivalry. The Dwarves were created by Aule, who was in such a hurry to see what the children of Iluvatar would be like that he decided to make some himself; Iluvatar was angry at his presumption and though he decreed that the Dwarves should be allowed to live, that they should sleep under the earth for a while, since Iluvatar did not want these interlopers coming before the Elves whom he had intended as firstborn. Iluvatar tells Aule "But when the time comes I will awaken them [the Dwarves] and they shall be to thee as children; and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, children of my adoption and the children of my choice." With a divine/parental sendoff like that, it's no wonder the Dwarves were a little touchy about the Elves - and vice versa, of course. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

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01-10-2001, 01:15 AM	#2
Saulotus Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 346	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm Posts: 354</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: enemity between dwarves and elves Depends on which level you wish to consider. One one; when the dwarves (specifically the petty-dwarves) arrived they were hunted like animals by the Elves. On another level is the general arrogance displayed by the Elves. On a third; you could even equate in sibling rivalry (an adopted familial relationship one at that). On a side note related to a different thread (mostly to Lindil and Mithadan who have seen Maeglin): this also fits in with the retention of Eol and his servitude. The fermentation of distrust is implied from his contact with the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, and now has an even stronger hidden agenda (and one of the reasons that it was retained, [there are others not quite as subtle as this]). Take your pick as to the beginnings of the matter. This does not even address the Battle of Beleriand with Azghal or the sack of Menegroth as additional fuel to the fire, nor the closure of Moria even later. </p>

01-11-2001, 02:04 PM	#3
Raw Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 13	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased Posts: 5</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: enemity between dwarves and elves Wow. I didn't know that, i knew that it was enemity between them but not why. Where did you find out that? In the Silmarillion? And, is there any other good books about middle-earth? I have seen some of them, but how are they? /RAW </p>

03-19-2002, 09:02 AM	#4
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 361	Yes, the Silmarilion covers all that somewhat. I've always looked to the sack of Menegroth as the main seed of enemity, but there are lots I guess.