Thorondor as a Maia???

[Lost One]

Dwarves and ents are rational peoples, but not Children or Ainur: why should there not be a race of sentient eagles on the same basis?

[the phantom]

Dwarves and ents are rational peoples, but not Children or Ainur: why should there not be a race of sentient eagles on the same basis?

Actually, Eru called the dwarves his adopted children so you can classify dwarves as Children of Eru.

As far as Ents go-

and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein

This is in the Sil when it talks about the birth of the Ents. It says that Ents are "spirits from afar" but what does that mean? For all we know, they are Ainu spirits. Or maybe not.

Well, no matter, it's not important to my point which is- Dwarves and Ents appear to be rational creatures (they have a fea) but note that both were specifically addressed by Tolkien. He made sure and said that Ents had spirits and that Dwarves were adopted by Eru.

If there were another race of beings with a fea I seriously doubt that Tolkien would've skipped mentioning it.

[Finwe]

Thorondor could have just been an extremely "evolved" Eagle, just as Huan was an extremely "evolved" dog.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Gwahiar was a descendent of Thorondor

If Thorondor was a Maiar or at least an Ainor, then it may go some way to explain why Gwihiar was so willing to Help Mitrandir. The Business of healing him from "A particularly nasty arrow wound" could have helped, but then only for one occasion I suppose, the Eagles are proud they would not willing carry one who they did not know to be trustworthy of friendly.

Also *IF* Thorondor was a Maiar (Or Ainor) then Gwihir with the same blood in him, would have been able to see who Gandalf was really, Olorin. Perhaps, if this is true, he wished to befriend someone from the blessed realm, who was wise and powerful. This would explain why he swallowed his pride so many times to carry Gandalf and his friends (I.e. Aragorn in RotK and the Dwarves and Bilbo in The Hobbit)

Or maybe I’m going mad and seeing things that aren’t there... again!

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Good quote, Phantom [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Eagles are kelvar; so, could the big eagles be some of these spirits? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[doug*platypus]

Huan and Sorontar could be Maiar - emissaries of Manwë.

But couldn't an emissary of Manwë be a non-Maiar? Even one of the kelvar? We could consider Tuor to be an emissary of Ulmo, in which case an emissary could be one of the Children of Ilúvatar.

Is there a difference between a fëa and the spirits that inhabited Ents (and may also have inhabited the Eagles of the Lords of the West)? Treebeard and the Ents show a much wider range of emotion than Orcs, and are capable of sub-creation as evidenced by their lovely wee songs. It is believable that an Ent could have a fëa and an Orc could not. Whether Eagles are similar to Ents in terms of their behaviour is debatable.

If an eagle did have a fëa, would that mean it was a Maia? I don't think it would have to mean that; not even for Thorondor. I'm thinking right about now that Thorondor and his clan are sentient eagles that have fëar, but are not Maiar. The fact that Yavanna is so deeply involved in their appearance (I hesitate to say "creation") makes me think they are kelvar of some kind rather than incarnate Maiar. My whacky theory on Huan I will explain elsewhere.

Here are two tiny bits of pretty unconvincing evidence that got me thinking about Thorondor along these lines. Firstly, I can't remember his death being described at all, yet we know that he is no longer chief of the Eagles of the Lords of the West by the time of The Hobbit. I feel that the death in battle of such a remarkable character would have been mentioned somewhere! And if he did not die in battle, then it must have been old age. Ergo he was not a Maiar, at least not as we know them. Second bit of "schmevidence" is similar: he is referred to as "Old Thorondor" in The Lord of the Rings... somewhere. How does this "schmevidence" rate?

[Lost One]

In the same section of the Silmarillion, 'Of Aule and Yavanna', once the ents are accounted for, Yavanna and Manwe remember in the Song their thoughts 'taking wing like birds together'. Manwe says 'By the heed of Iluvatar and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West'. These are special creations, given being by Iluvatar, not just big birds.

Hello everybody,

This is my first post. Hello!!!

My view over the particular question is that Thorondor, Huan, Thuringwethil, Carcharoth, Ancalagon, Glaurung and every highest rank creature is indeed a Maia. I think that Maiar are prototypical of specific ideas of Eru's Thought, and Valar prototypical of general realms (i. e. light, wind, water, earth, olvar, fate, compassion, kelvar, cold -Melkor Morgoth-, and the like). They are the demiurgs of their own sphere of influence.

I refer to the Curse of Mandos when he tells the Noldo that Melkor Morgoth is indeed a Vala, and even if Eru Iluvatar had made Feanor three times greater than what he already was, he could not stand before Melkor Morgoth.

I think that, generally speaking, no one is able to kill an ainu except another ainu. If it happens, I think Namo Mandos is at work. For instance, Bilbo finding the One Ring, Echtelion killing Gothmog being killed himself in it and similar cases...

On the other side, Great Eagles, Ents, and similar people, have indeed fea, and It may well be that Melian and Thingol is not the only -but the best known- of the unions between Children and Ainur.

Any suggestions???

Manwe Sulimo

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Manwe_Sulimo

On the other side, Great Eagles, Ents, and similar people, have indeed fea, and It may well be that Melian and Thingol is not the only -but the best known- of the unions between Children and Ainur.

I think it's said that they were the only ones. But that doesn't rule out animals etc....

Seriously, welcome Manwe_Sulimo! I hope you enjoy the 'Downs. If you want to introduce yourself, this is the place to do it. Hope to see you around!

[Raynor]

As far as I am aware, this quote hasn't been presented:

Originally Posted by , Commentary on the sixth and last section of the Annals of Aman, HoME X

Manwe however sent Maia spirits in Eagle form to dwell near Thangorodrim and keep watch on all that Melkor did and assist the Noldor in extreme cases.

[Galin]

Part of the problem might be that certain relevant texts are hard to date, at least in relation to each other:

'Manwe however sent Maia spirits in Eagle form to dwell near Thangorodrim...' Note to the typescript, Annals of Aman

'... many of the Maiar robed themselves like other lesser living things, as trees, flowers, beasts. (Huan.)' Note on the page for Myths Transformed, text V

'Huan and Sorontar could be Maiar -- emissaries of Manwe. But unfortunately in The Lord of the Rings Gwaehir and Landroval are said to be descendants of Sorontar.' Myths Transformed text VIII

These appear to hail from the late 1950s


I have a further question concerning text VIII in any case: immediately after noting the problem of the descendants of Thorondor, Tolkien asks if Maiar can become Orcs, answers yes, and then notes: '... but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force.'

But does this not imply that Maiar could have descendants? If these spirits accept permanent incarnation as Eagles, it seems to me that Gwaehir and Landroval being descendants of Thorondor should not necessarily prohibit the idea of Thorondor being a Maia -- though I certainly agree he should procreate with a female Maia as an eagle, as opposed to a regular eagle.

If so (correct me if I'm wrong about this previous part), Tolkien's conclusion to text VIII -- that the eagles are not Maiar but beasts raised to a higher level (but still without fear, as in plural of fea) -- could be in question, possibly being the result of a problem that may not really have been a problem (upon further reflection?). But yet, according to very next paragraph following the statement about Thorondor, even Tolkien seems to think Maiar could have descendants.

I realize this was very much a record of 'thinking with the pen', but I'm wondering if others share my confusion here -- or if I'm off the path myself, creating my own confusion rather.

_______________

The Osanwe-kenta (c 1959-60) states: 'The only case that is known in the histories of the Eldar is that of Melian who became the spouse of King Elu-thingol. This certainly was not evil or against the will of Eru, and though it led to sorrow, both Elves and Men were enriched.' Author's note 5, where Pengolodh adds a long note on the use of hroar by the Valar.

This singles Melian out, but not being published (which caused Tolkien's 'unfortunately' above in text VIII with respect to Thorondor), to my mind this would still not necessarily prohibit the notion of the eagles as Maiar, if desired.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

If so (correct me if I'm wrong about this previous part), Tolkien's conclusion to text VIII -- that the eagles are not Maiar but beasts raised to a higher level (but still without fear, as in plural of fea) -- could be in question, possibly being the result of a problem that may not really have been a problem (upon further reflection?). But yet, according to very next paragraph following the statement about Thorondor, even Tolkien seems to think Maiar could have descendants.

I don't think the Eagles of the First Age being incarnate Maia would preclude their procreating.
It seems likely to me that Shelob, as 'the last child of Ungoliant' was the product of such procreation.

The Eldar knew not whence [Ungoliant] came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service.

Silmarillion Of the Darkening of Valinor

The clear implicaton is that Ungoliant was of the Maia, and if she could mate while in the incarnate form of a spider, why not other Maia in the forms of eagles?