The WitchKing and Gothmog

[obloquy]

I think i read some where that when in Dol Guildor Saron visited Moria and "talked" with the Balrog, and Saron put orcs and troll under his control, i forge twhere though

Nope.

Aule: They are called "Maiar". "Maiar" is plural, and "Maia" is singular.

Tarthang: My rather grouchy reply was not to your post, but to the two above it. Your post had not shown up when I hit the reply button.

I just finished The Lost Road (HoME 5) and vividly recall the quote mentioning Hosts of Balrogs. I also recall one of the versions given has some of the Balrogs ran and hid, thus escaping the War of Wrath.

We're actually talking about the Battle of the Powers. Nobody has denied that early accounts of this battle included 'hosts of Balrogs'.

(Which by the way was led by Fionwe, son of Manwe, in these versions to put to rest the Maia, Vala having offspring issue to rest).

The texts of HoMe V are obsolete, as is this version of the account of the War of Wrath (note: this is not the Battle of the Powers). Eonwe the Maia replaced Fionwe.

I haven't read Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10) yet

At least some knowledge of MR is required for this discussion. This is why you're not quite understanding the points that were made above. I highly recommend making MR your next Tolkien purchase.

Therefore, I could interpret these numbers to mean a refernce to the numbers of Balrogs who fled, going on what I've read from The Lost Road and what I'm seeing here.

In the margin of a manuscript of the Annals of Aman (provided in Morgoth's Ring), Tolkien wrote this: 'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 [Balrogs] ever existed.' I think the wording here rules out your interpretation.

I've alway's interpreted any fallen Maia as being a Balrog. I don't know if JRRT ever addressed what exactly quantified a Balrog either, so even a lesser fallen Maia is a Balrog (if not as powerful as say Gothmog).

It has to do with the spirit of the Maia. The Balrogs are 'spirits of fire'. Sauron was not a Balrog. Tolkien tells us that lesser Maiar took shape as mighty Orc chieftains.

I hope this helps!

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ]