**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**

[Aiwendil]

Lindil wrote:

I propose we think in terms of additions to the 77 Silm Ruin of Doriath- which may well need to result in a few minor subtractions.

And Maedhros wrote:

I need to know if this is the official view of the majority of the members. I'm in total opposition to this.

It is certainly not my view; I am also rather in opposition to it.

Christopher Tolkien states not only that he regrets certain of the changes he made but also that a far less radical version is probably possible. This is the view that has the benefit of years of study and insight.

At one time I thought that we would need to use Christopher's version; but I had grossly overestimated the amount of editorial reworking that would be required to make something sensible out of Tolkien's writings alone.

Our principles allow us to use text created by Christopher Tolkien but they certainly never compel us to do so. The preference, of course, is to use JRRT's text - and plot - wherever possible.

The situation with the death of Thingol can be taken care of simply by following the note suggesting that he went to war beyond the border and leaving the details ambiguous.

For the quarrel of Thingol and the Dwarves, we have at the very least the Q30 account.

The one real problem that we are left with, in my view, is the fate of the outlaws. But we would be left with this in any case, since no one (as far as I know) is suggesting that we follow the '77 in dropping the outlaws.

Lindil wrote:

I would love to see Melian lift the curse of Mim's treasure from the outlaws, but for the moment I am reluctant to countenance it, till I can read a version that does not have it, and see if I feel it's lack as a real thing, not just an item on a wish-list.

But isn't this the kind of fan fiction that a moment ago you said you wish to avoid?

I admit, it would make a good story. But I think introducing it would be stepping a little over the bounds of editorialization.

I think the idea of Asgon becoming the cource of the material [subbing his name in the Dirhavel/Aelfwine material?] is possible, but has Fan-Fiction liabilities.

Agreed. I certainly don't think we should actually say anything concerning Asgon or anyone else following their departure from Menegroth.

CJRT did a masterful job of turning a sinlge reference to Ents at the destruction of the host of Dwarves into marrative, so, again I say we keep it.

I agree.

I will [though it is rare for me in general] go for 1 over 2.

Alas - I quite definitely go for 2 over 1.

But perhaps we should put the Ruin of Doriath aside and focus on finishing the Fall of Gondolin. What we do not need is to be deeply embroiled in the two most troublesome chapters at the same time.