immortality - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Palan · 11-05-2002, 09:58 AM

Ah, now it seems we come to the crux of the issue "FREE WILL." Do orcs have it? Do elves and men have it?

It is merely my feeling that orcs do not have a "free will" in the confines of ME. Their wills are bound to a source of evil. But (here may be the controversial statement)I do not believe that man and elves were blessed with "free will." I have not brushed up on my Music of the Ainur in a while, but I believe the gist is that what will be is what is (ie fate); only Iluvatar can know the beginning and the end of the song. The choices that men/elves make are fated, not of their free choice. The prime example of this is Turin. He is cursed (fated to err, he had no control). Melkor actually worries that Turin (especially in the Girdle of Melian) may not sin/err because of his lineage and his true heart, but the curse is a part of Melkor's portion of the Music, Turin's fate is predestined.

Now how does this relate to the origin of orcs and immortality? Immortality is considered a gift meaning you are granted life everlasting without condition. Orcs who seem immortal are not because their long lives are with conditions, conditions which force them to be evil (much to their hate of their master).

One hole I can see is what happens after the Dagor Dagorath. If elves are immortal will they then cease to exist (ie die)? Then it could be said that orcs are as immortal as elves within the confines of ME (as long as evil exists, which it must), and, therefore, orcs do not have to be changed elves to achieve immortality; they only need wills everlastingly bound to evil.

Sorry if this is long and rambling. . .

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11-05-2002, 09:58 AM	#1
Palan Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 14	Ah, now it seems we come to the crux of the issue "FREE WILL." Do orcs have it? Do elves and men have it? It is merely my feeling that orcs do not have a "free will" in the confines of ME. Their wills are bound to a source of evil. But (here may be the controversial statement)I do not believe that man and elves were blessed with "free will." I have not brushed up on my Music of the Ainur in a while, but I believe the gist is that what will be is what is (ie fate); only Iluvatar can know the beginning and the end of the song. The choices that men/elves make are fated, not of their free choice. The prime example of this is Turin. He is cursed (fated to err, he had no control). Melkor actually worries that Turin (especially in the Girdle of Melian) may not sin/err because of his lineage and his true heart, but the curse is a part of Melkor's portion of the Music, Turin's fate is predestined. Now how does this relate to the origin of orcs and immortality? Immortality is considered a gift meaning you are granted life everlasting without condition. Orcs who seem immortal are not because their long lives are with conditions, conditions which force them to be evil (much to their hate of their master). One hole I can see is what happens after the Dagor Dagorath. If elves are immortal will they then cease to exist (ie die)? Then it could be said that orcs are as immortal as elves within the confines of ME (as long as evil exists, which it must), and, therefore, orcs do not have to be changed elves to achieve immortality; they only need wills everlastingly bound to evil. Sorry if this is long and rambling. . .