Legolas and the Balrog

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

If Aragorn was wise and learned in the tales of old, why did he not recognize that it was a Balrog? Maybe because every last one was thought to have been destroyed in the War of Wrath? How many of them participated in the War of Wrath? Zero. That happened two ages prior. There are fouler things in the depths, probably things worse than the Watcher at Westgate, that they anticipated it could have been. After all, so many ageless demonic creatures had been brought up and nurtured by the likes of Morgoth or Sauron in the past, like the Nazgul hell-hawks, the wolf Carcharoth, and even older, more nasty creatures like Shelob still roamed the lands. Well, she didn't roam. But you see the point. There were various other things it could have been, besides a Balrog. But as an obvious thing made of dark shadow and racing with flame, that could blow Mithrandir's magic and bust down Balin's chamber, had to A. Be large, and B. A fire spirit. There weren't too many other things that fit the description they saw for themselves in Moria. Also, the Balrog was demonic looking and very much mighty, and what does Balrog (more specifically Valaraukar) mean? Exactly.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

We don't actually know how many fought in the War of Wrath, since information on it is scarce. I would warrant that it would've been few, since Tolkien finally went form his opinion on mass Balrogs to only 7 or less.

Well too me 7 or less Balrogs is a mass of them.

...on another note, not only could have Legolas heard tales and songs about balrog but their must be some elven artists types who will have painted pictures and murals of these demonic maia spirits.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Well 7 is a significant change from the thousands that were originally concieved to have existed.

[burrahobbit]

How many top generals fought in World War 2? Certainly not thousands of them, but I can tell you a bit about what they were like.

That isn't even a good analogy, WW2 was more generations ago for me than the war of wrath was for Legolas. If I could tell you about the top people in WW2, being three generations removed, wouldn't you expect Legolas to recognize a Balrog, when he is only one or two generations removed, and when Elves are much better at telling stories?

[Eru]

Doesn't seem likely that he would be shocked by the trees and Ents of Fangorn yet be familiar with crebain.

he never was 'shocked' by the ents. well, maybe there age, because I remember him saying that he would feel young again if he were to meet an ent.

i've read this whole thread now, and i'm confused about the main point...

anyways, yeah, since elves live such a long time, knowledge is preserved far more readily than Men can preserve it. anyways, i have to go. promise to edit later. so i make sense...

[Legolas]

No, he's not talking about Ents then. He's talking about the forest and its general vibe.

'I feel the air is stuffy,' said the Dwarf. 'This wood is lighter than Mirkwood, but it is musty and shabby.'
'It is old, very old,' said the Elf. 'So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children. It is old and full of memory. I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.'

[ February 12, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Sarumian]

An interesting discussion. Let me offer a simple solution - Legolas had better eyesight than anyone else in the Company. A Balrog is wrapped in shadows and is not easy to be recognised at once.

We can be pretty sure that Boromir and younger hobbits knew virtually nothing about Balrogs, while Frodo and Gimly potentially could have heard a little (I mean the Barlog as a kind of creature, not Durin's Bane before it was identified). Aragorn seems likely to have come across some information about Balrogs' role in the first age but could hardly expect to meet one; Olorin, as far as I concerned, had never met one in the flesh. For Legolas Balrogs were the living memory of his race. All of them were aquainted with at least one person having a first hand Balrog experience (Glorfindel), and Aragorn should have known him since he was a child. However the perception should have been quite different. Imagine, you walk through a London suburbian park and see an elk running towards you. You probably are going to be taken by surprise and feel fear. That's what Legolas feels. And now imagine meeting a dinosaur in a simillar settings. In this case you probably would struggle to come to terms with your own mind. This could be a reason why Aragorn didn't name the thing in Lorien. He probably thought: it was too difficult to believe and they would think he lied.

What is unclear for me is that dwarfs failed to recognise a Balrog in Durin's Bane. But yes, probably they forgot those events...

[Nerwen]

Really, what was this all about?

As far as I can work out, the reasoning is that since Legolas was the first to yell when the Balrog appeared, he must have been the only one to know what a Balrog was, therefore he must have seen one before, therefore he must be a First Age Elf, therefore he must be Legolas of Gondolin!

Makes the Arkenstone/Silmaril case look positively watertight!

[Nerwen]

I was going to say: what I find really funny here is the way so many of the posters talk about the scene of the Balrog's entrance as though the Company had sat around discussing the newcomer's identity at leisure, and maybe taken a poll on it.

"Gosh, I wonder what that thing can be? Maybe a really tall Orc? What do you think, Aragorn?"

"Nah, I vote for fire-troll. I'm sure they exist. Gandalf?"

"Nonsense, you fool of a Ranger. It can only be a wyvern– er, we do have those in Middle-earth, don't we?"

In fact the whole passage describes what must be a very short space of time– probably only a few seconds!

[blantyr]

This whole discussion should be reframed as it was in the book, as a Elf-Dwarf debate. Was it a Balrog, or was it Durin's Bane?