Orcs... were elves? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Animalmother · 03-21-2011, 11:28 PM

Given Melkor/Morgoth's evil proclivity as a sub-creator, the polygenesis hypothesis of orc origins makes most sense. He enjoyed twisting and ruining beings, so why would he limit himself to elves as his founding stock for orcs, when mankind (and perhaps proto-hobbit kind) were also available?

Polygenesis would explain some of the anomalies in the LOTR text. If orcs were of two original stocks, one immortal and the other mortal, orc society would have an orc-aristocracy with a proportionally greater share of elven ancestry, which would confer on the orc-aristocrats greater height, greater longevity, and greater knowledge of ancient orc lore and of the will of their dark masters. The great mass of orcs (snaga) would be twisted versions of mankind, would be shorter and shorter-lived, and would not be the carriers of high (low?) orc-culture. This parallels the caste differences between Numenoreans and other Men.

Shagrat and Gorbag (who remembered a "Great Siege" which could have been the siege of Minas Ithil 1000 years earlier) were likely aristo-orcs, and therefore would naturally be in positions of command. The father-son dynasty of Misty Mountain orc-kings which was so long-lived (Azog/Bolg if I remember right) would also be aristo-orcs. The Great Goblin of THE HOBBIT would be one too. The great mass of common orcs would be of longevity no greater than mankind's.

Orc fertility is another question. Elves would naturally have low fertility, which is unsuitable for a warrior species. Melkor/Morgoth's mutation of women into orc-women would include modifying normal human reproduction so that the orc women frequently produced twins, triplets, and quadruplets. This would explain how the orc population recovered quickly after crushing defeats. It would also explain, to some extent, the small stature of common orcs, as multiple fetuses competing for limited pre-natal nutrition tend to be less large and healthy than single fetuses.

Did orcs have free will? I think the answer, given their origins and actual behavior, must be yes. Their innate urges to be cruel and warlike were stronger than mankind's, and were reinforced by a culture of darkness, but they had free wills and could imagine having different lives, as could Gollum. Was the universal elf/human/dwarf policy of orc-extermination unjustifiable? That's too tough an ethical question for me.

03-21-2011, 11:28 PM	#11
Animalmother Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14	Orc Aristocrats Given Melkor/Morgoth's evil proclivity as a sub-creator, the polygenesis hypothesis of orc origins makes most sense. He enjoyed twisting and ruining beings, so why would he limit himself to elves as his founding stock for orcs, when mankind (and perhaps proto-hobbit kind) were also available? Polygenesis would explain some of the anomalies in the LOTR text. If orcs were of two original stocks, one immortal and the other mortal, orc society would have an orc-aristocracy with a proportionally greater share of elven ancestry, which would confer on the orc-aristocrats greater height, greater longevity, and greater knowledge of ancient orc lore and of the will of their dark masters. The great mass of orcs (snaga) would be twisted versions of mankind, would be shorter and shorter-lived, and would not be the carriers of high (low?) orc-culture. This parallels the caste differences between Numenoreans and other Men. Shagrat and Gorbag (who remembered a "Great Siege" which could have been the siege of Minas Ithil 1000 years earlier) were likely aristo-orcs, and therefore would naturally be in positions of command. The father-son dynasty of Misty Mountain orc-kings which was so long-lived (Azog/Bolg if I remember right) would also be aristo-orcs. The Great Goblin of THE HOBBIT would be one too. The great mass of common orcs would be of longevity no greater than mankind's. Orc fertility is another question. Elves would naturally have low fertility, which is unsuitable for a warrior species. Melkor/Morgoth's mutation of women into orc-women would include modifying normal human reproduction so that the orc women frequently produced twins, triplets, and quadruplets. This would explain how the orc population recovered quickly after crushing defeats. It would also explain, to some extent, the small stature of common orcs, as multiple fetuses competing for limited pre-natal nutrition tend to be less large and healthy than single fetuses. Did orcs have free will? I think the answer, given their origins and actual behavior, must be yes. Their innate urges to be cruel and warlike were stronger than mankind's, and were reinforced by a culture of darkness, but they had free wills and could imagine having different lives, as could Gollum. Was the universal elf/human/dwarf policy of orc-extermination unjustifiable? That's too tough an ethical question for me.