Denethor's plunge - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

alatar · 09-04-2007, 09:03 AM

Rethinking the movies a bit, I now have yet another theory regarding Denethor's flaming plunge:

Denethor was of Númenórean blood.
The Nazgûl presumedly were as well.
On Weathertop, Aragorn drives away the Nazgûl with fire. Now, one may say that the Nazgûl, having planted the sliver in Frodo's heart, did what they came to do and so left by their own volition and not because of the fire, but if you remember the scene, after the Witch-King's attack and retreat, there's that one Nazgûl that's a real go-getter and hangs around to do a bit more damage. Aragorn sees him and throws a flaming brand into the creature, who subsequently catches fire and leaves. Let's call this one "Torchie."
Later we see all Nine chase after Glor...Arwen and her Frodo Baggage doll. If all Nine are present, where did Torchie get new black cloth in which to wrap his invisible form? Did Torchie have to borrow a spare robe from Khamûl? I've checked both Tolkien's and Peter Jackson's maps, and I cannot find a reputable sempstress or tailor shop between Bree and Rivendell. Maybe Torchie's cloak only appeared to burn. Hmm...
Maybe Númenóreans impart fire resistance to their clothing?
Isildur wasn't affected by the heat of the glede Ring nor the fact that he stood inside an active volcano, so there is precedent.
Gandalf sure had a long time to talk with Aragorn, and it can be assumed that the two shared much information.
Gandalf shoos Aragorn away "Swords are no more use here!" when facing the Balrog in Moria. Did Gandalf know that Aragorn may have been able to fight Roggie, a creature of flame? Anyway...
Gandalf gets owned by the Witch-King. Shortly thereafter, Gandalf attacks the crazed Denethor, who was obviously crazy as he was of Númenórean blood and was going to try to immolate himself and his son anyway. Might have been those tomatoes.
Gandalf does seem to use what's available.

So we have Gandalf unable to fight the Witch-King, who is flying around Minas Tirith making a mess of the defense. He has Denethor, crazed and covered in oil. Gandalf knows much and uses what's available. Flame drove the Nazgûl from Weathertop; it may work here as well. Denethor knows, somewhere inside his head, that flame really won't hurt him.

A few well-placed knocks to the head - Gandalf rebooting and 'aiming' the Steward - and suddenly we have Denethor running for the edge. "Denethor, son of Ecthelion II, Steward of Gondor, do your duty and go out to meet the Black Captain in aerial combat. The flames about you will not harm you. Go and meet whatever fate awaits you..."

This explains why Denethor's guards and entourage do not protest; their Lord is going to fight the Black Captain from whom all have fled - even Gandalf.

It wasn't realized until later that Denethor couldn't see worth a wit, and so dove out at rooster changing its perch.

09-04-2007, 09:03 AM	#10
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Rethinking the movies a bit, I now have yet another theory regarding Denethor's flaming plunge: Denethor was of Númenórean blood. The Nazgûl presumedly were as well. On Weathertop, Aragorn drives away the Nazgûl with fire. Now, one may say that the Nazgûl, having planted the sliver in Frodo's heart, did what they came to do and so left by their own volition and not because of the fire, but if you remember the scene, after the Witch-King's attack and retreat, there's that one Nazgûl that's a real go-getter and hangs around to do a bit more damage. Aragorn sees him and throws a flaming brand into the creature, who subsequently catches fire and leaves. Let's call this one "Torchie." Later we see all Nine chase after Glor...Arwen and her Frodo Baggage doll. If all Nine are present, where did Torchie get new black cloth in which to wrap his invisible form? Did Torchie have to borrow a spare robe from Khamûl? I've checked both Tolkien's and Peter Jackson's maps, and I cannot find a reputable sempstress or tailor shop between Bree and Rivendell. Maybe Torchie's cloak only appeared to burn. Hmm... Maybe Númenóreans impart fire resistance to their clothing? Isildur wasn't affected by the heat of the glede Ring nor the fact that he stood inside an active volcano, so there is precedent. Gandalf sure had a long time to talk with Aragorn, and it can be assumed that the two shared much information. Gandalf shoos Aragorn away "Swords are no more use here!" when facing the Balrog in Moria. Did Gandalf know that Aragorn may have been able to fight Roggie, a creature of flame? Anyway... Gandalf gets owned by the Witch-King. Shortly thereafter, Gandalf attacks the crazed Denethor, who was obviously crazy as he was of Númenórean blood and was going to try to immolate himself and his son anyway. Might have been those tomatoes. Gandalf does seem to use what's available. So we have Gandalf unable to fight the Witch-King, who is flying around Minas Tirith making a mess of the defense. He has Denethor, crazed and covered in oil. Gandalf knows much and uses what's available. Flame drove the Nazgûl from Weathertop; it may work here as well. Denethor knows, somewhere inside his head, that flame really won't hurt him. A few well-placed knocks to the head - Gandalf rebooting and 'aiming' the Steward - and suddenly we have Denethor running for the edge. "Denethor, son of Ecthelion II, Steward of Gondor, do your duty and go out to meet the Black Captain in aerial combat. The flames about you will not harm you. Go and meet whatever fate awaits you..." This explains why Denethor's guards and entourage do not protest; their Lord is going to fight the Black Captain from whom all have fled - even Gandalf. It wasn't realized until later that Denethor couldn't see worth a wit, and so dove out at rooster changing its perch. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.