The Lord of the Bible?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

But davem, the problem is taking the author out of the equation. Once a book has been written, yes, it becomes a separate entity. But it's like saying that a child, once grown, does not have within him some of his parents' biological makeup.

I see your point though. If I did not know that Tolkien was a devout Catholic, would I see Christian ideas within the book? Probably, because I was raised in a rural W.A.S.P. community. That's just the way most of NY is. I would spot it because that's what I've been submersed in since I was born. You see what you're used to seeing.

But let's say that I wasn't raised in such a setting, that I didn't know Tolkien's life story, that I knew nothing pertaining to religion in either of our lives... but I still knew religion enough that I'd be curious enough to try to guess what his leanings were.

I would see Celtic nature worship in beings like Goldberry, I would see a Christian Satan in Melkor, I would see, probably, a bit of Buddha's compassion and unattachment to material goods within Bombadil. I would spot the Valar with their individual talents as maybe Greek or Roman gods. Eru would be a conglomeration of the god[s?] of every monotheistic religion. I don't know enough about any other religion to make the connections.

So your point of non-Christian Universalism is clearly accurate. There is nothing within the text to say that the work has Christian ideals in it. It is not, as I believe Raynor said, a portrait of Christ. You can't call it a Christian book, but if you read a story with underlying themes of ultimate goodness that's written by a devout Christian, those "good" qualities, whether or not they apply to every other religion, are probably going to lean more into the Christian slot of the roulette wheel.

Me too. I mean, brought up in a rural community where going to church was 'the norm'. But I read the books when I was most definitely a Christian, I used to go to church every Sunday religiously (well, you would, wouldn't you? ) and was confirmed - a big deal to me. After reading the books it was as though I'd had a revelation. There was a whole world out there that was not bound by the church, bound by rules or dogma - as I then began to see it. I saw that you could be good, and heroic, and all that other stuff just by living. The books woke me up to the older world, to the Celtic myths, to the peoples who lived in Britain before the Romans brought this Middle-Eastern religion.

I saw nothing remotely Christian in the books, and I still don't see that.

And yes, I had read the biography and I knew full well Tolkien's religion. I also knew Catholicism well as my grandmothers were both catholics - one rejected it entirely and vehemently as she was 'cast out' for 'sin', the other used to sneakily give me catechisms and the like to read as bedtime stories (sneakily as my father found this to be a bit disturbing for a child to read such stuff). And believe me, I read the books over and over and over.

So why, if the book was Christian, was it the catalyst for me not being a Christian any more? Nobody can answer me that. And its probably at the root of why I always refute that it is a Christian book in the sense of any dogmatic message, as I fundamentally find it to be anything but. It's wide open, Universal and wonderful and totally above differences of religion.