Relative Powers - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

littlemanpoet · 04-02-2006, 11:46 AM

I'm going to stick with Fëanor as the greatest of the Noldor. Though Fingolfin is the most noble, it is the oath of Fëanor that takes power over Fëanor. This shows that the oath is greater than its speaker, not that Fëanor is less after speaking it than he was before. The oath was spoken invoking none other than Ilúvatar, so Eru's power is what overcomes Fëanor's native strengths, by Fëanor's own will, having spoken the oath. It is clear that Tolkien (I assume rather than C.T., though I may need correcting on this) takes this oath so seriously that he does not quote it verbatim, but narrates it. The point of this, in case anyone may miss it (at least it seems obvious to me), is that by narrating the oath rather than quoting it, Tolkien avoided calling it into being.

Your points regarding the four chief Noldoran Elves have been very well put, and I've placed them as seems best to me, though I don't consider the issue completely resolved.

I've placed Uinen over Ossë because she has the power to restrain him.

I've dropped Smaug below the eagles and hawks of Manwë because I don't see the evil spirit in him as being greater than the spirits who take shape as eagles and hawks, or as greater than Melian to Tilion.

One question that needs resolving: Are the "spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles [that] flew ever to and from [Manwë's] halls" (Sil p. 40) different beings than Thorondor and the Eagles that play the role of rescuer in The Hobbit and LotR?

Updated List

04-02-2006, 11:46 AM	#11
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	I'm going to stick with Fëanor as the greatest of the Noldor. Though Fingolfin is the most noble, it is the oath of Fëanor that takes power over Fëanor. This shows that the oath is greater than its speaker, not that Fëanor is less after speaking it than he was before. The oath was spoken invoking none other than Ilúvatar, so Eru's power is what overcomes Fëanor's native strengths, by Fëanor's own will, having spoken the oath. It is clear that Tolkien (I assume rather than C.T., though I may need correcting on this) takes this oath so seriously that he does not quote it verbatim, but narrates it. The point of this, in case anyone may miss it (at least it seems obvious to me), is that by narrating the oath rather than quoting it, Tolkien avoided calling it into being. Your points regarding the four chief Noldoran Elves have been very well put, and I've placed them as seems best to me, though I don't consider the issue completely resolved. I've placed Uinen over Ossë because she has the power to restrain him. I've dropped Smaug below the eagles and hawks of Manwë because I don't see the evil spirit in him as being greater than the spirits who take shape as eagles and hawks, or as greater than Melian to Tilion. One question that needs resolving: Are the "spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles [that] flew ever to and from [Manwë's] halls" (Sil p. 40) different beings than Thorondor and the Eagles that play the role of rescuer in The Hobbit and LotR? Updated List