Descent into Hell!!! Rarrr!...Well, sort of...

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Makar

What about the most obvious decent and return, that of Gandalf? Like in Dante he goes down and then works his way up and when he comes back he is transformed.

This is a very good point. I often wonder if the symbolism of Moria is intended to be similar to the idea of Dante's levels of Hell. Moria has halls and levels, it has it's own 'satan' in the figure of the Balrog, and demons in the form of the Orcs, and it is clearly a place where untold suffering has happened. I'm sure that as a Catholic and having gone through a classical, grammar school type education, that Tolkien would have been more than aware of Dante. Certainly, even if he was not consciously drawing a link, then the idea of this would stay in the mind as it is all very lurid. I wonder if it says anything in any of the books - alas I have not the time to look this up thoroughly this morning. But Gandalf's fall in Moria is an excellent example of someone entering the underworld, in the classical sense of the underworld.

Originally Posted by Fordim

There's one thing missing from the descents into "hell" in LotR, though, and that's the hero's meeting with some now-dead heroic-yet-problematic figure from the past. Odysseus discovers Achilles in Hades (and his mother), Dante goes down there with Virgil and meets up with any number of heroic figures from the past (along with other disreputables, of course). So in addition to the threat of failure there is the promise of meeting with someone who can give useful guidance. A 'fallen' hero.

That doesn't happen in Tolkien's tale, so I'm curious about this absence

Good question! My take is that perhaps as Tolkien preferred the Northern myths to the classical ones, he did not necessarily follow the 'rules' associated with classical mythology.

There's another level (sorry) to the idea of descending into hell and re-emerging from it. The idea of descending to hell is vey much a Christian one, but what was there before Christianity? The idea of the Underworld voyage was still very much in existence. One of the theories about burial chambers is that they could have a dual use and members of the clan/tribe would enter these and take mental journeys into the underworld - whether through use of psychotropic substances, meditation or simply force of belief. Newgrange was said to be a dual purpose tomb. But there are also underground tunnels called Fogou, particularly common in Cornwall, which seem to serve little purpose and it is mooted that people would enter these tiny spaces and creep beneath the earth in order to enter the underworld.

This to me links to the Hobbits' experience in the Barrow. Here they very much enter the underworld, they are even dressed in finery as though they are heroes themselves. There is the very real threat of sacrifice, and they meet with a figure from the underworld. I love this whole episode as it is so powerful and symbolic. And Frodo of course becomes the hero of the piece by challenging this underworld figure and returning to the outer world.

So I think there are several descents into hell and many sacrifices before we get to the ultimate descent and sacrifice, that at Mount Doom. And even this is interesting, as it involves two figures, both Frodo and Gollum. Their ends are almost mirror images of each other. Both are destroyed physically and mentally. Yet only one receives his 'heavenly reward'. And this is odd, because it is the one who gives up his physical being, Gollum, who does not (as far as we know) receive a spiritual reward.