Dragons vs. Balrogs?

[obloquy]

Quoth the poet:

"..." This supports that she was a Maia, and that she did have a will of her own.

It supports that she was a spirit that Morgoth corrupted, but that does not necessarily mean Maia.

For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts.

Silmarillion

The actual meaning of this passage may be that he corrupted other Maiar with gifts, after the days of his greatness, but the possibility that "others" is intended more broadly cannot be denied. In fact, the labels "Valar" and "Maiar" seem to be not so much the name of their species or race, but simply titles given to the station they occupy within Arda. That Melkor could be "no longer counted among the Valar" shows us that one could be excluded from this order. The Valar were "the powers," and the Maiar were "the people of the Valar." This allows that Ungoliante was actually neither, as well as any other Ainu who may have descended into Arda without being designated Valar (as Tulkas was), or without subjecting themselves to a Vala for servitude (Tom Bombadil?! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]). On an aside, perhaps the innate power of the Ainu (before it became either Vala or Maia) determined to which group it would belong, and not the other way around -- in other words, it is possible that these unassigned Ainur had power to rival the Valar. Theoretically. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Here is a quote to support my argument above:

Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it.

Silmarillion

If Ungoliante had served Morgoth when he was still among the Valar, she would, by definition, be a Maia. But as soon as she forsook him, would she not then be an unaffiliated Ainu? Did Sauron ever become an unaffiliated Ainu, rather than a Maia of Morgoth, formerly of Aule? Did Melian's life in Beleriand remove her from the service of Vana and Este, and thus also from the order of Maiar? Though all these would remain Ainur, could the title of Maia still be applied to them?

To me this seems like added reason for Melkor to give them extra power, so that they would be more effective. No, you are right that it isn't explicitly stated, but why would Melkor not give the Balrogs some of his powers.

I don't think Morgoth was so generous. He would have feared rebellion and usurpation if they became too powerful. He may have told them he was enhancing them, but I highly doubt he would have actually done so (hence "treacherous gifts"). As for Glaurung, I would say that the spirit of Morgoth within him is not Morgoth's power, but Morgoth's malice and hate.

Morgoth is spoken of in several places as spending his spirit on his servants so I think that we can take it that some sort of power transfer was taking place.

Could you direct me to some of these places? I know he squandered his spirit in devising new evils, corrupting races (Trolls, Orcs), and breeding new beasts (Glaurung [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]), but this does not necessarily mean enhancing the spirit of these creatures with his own.

Sometimes the word "creatures" can be used as a put-down for somebody you are speaking unfavorably about. I think that may be what is going on here. Voronwe is speaking in disgust about his enemies, and lumping them all together under the insulting word "creatures.

This I disagree with just because I do. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I doubt that in his fear and disgust he was being technical as to whether or not Morgoth had 'bred' the bodies of particular servants. He was speaking in shock and horror.

Could he not then also have exaggerated a bit?

It did not say that the hosts of Angband, except Balrogs, fell asleep. All were put to sleep. I think this shows some sort of relationship between the spirits of Balrogs and the spirit of Morgoth.

Do you mean to say that Morgoth was sustaining all of his hordes by his own power, like a puppeteer? And that they fell asleep only because Morgoth did? No, I think it's more reasonable to assume that they had all been affected by the same spell.

I hate to cop-out on you, but the truth is, if you say your quote doesn't conflict with mine, then Balrogs were more powerful since "servants" encompasses more than "creatures" (in this context). If you say the quotes do conflict, then the LotR one must stand as the answer to the question.

I have to go now, so I apologize for any errors that I may have been able to catch with sufficient time to go over the post again and edit. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]