* *A New Project ~~~ Revising the Ainulindale* *

[Aiwendil]

Lindil:

Do we have instances of JRRT himself expunging Aelfwine/Pengoldh/Rumil from his later 50's and 60's era texts?

We have, as far as I can find, no such instances. My search was fairly cursory, though, so I may have missed something.

One may also question keeping Eressea, it could be explained by the unstated hypothesis that Elves in Eressea heard it and transmitted the tale [with Pengolodh Rumil and all] to Numenor or if we want to take Bilbo's collecting of written and living sources to it's logical extreme, Glorfindel could be the source!

I think it's better to drop Eressea. Any justification that we might concoct for keeping it would be just that: a concoction. The fact is that in the text, Eressea appears because Pengolodh is speaking to Aelfwine there. Eliminate that conversation (as we must) and you eliminate Eressea.

Inderjit Sanghera:

1.I preffered the Silmarillion style of writing, without constant interuptions, such as 'So sayeth Rumil'.

2. I think a newcomer may find it easier without the interuptions as well.

3. I prefer to think that Bilbo wrote it.

Two points. First, the decision is not to be based on preference. Whether we prefer one style or another is not the issue. Second, I think such interruptions will have to be taken out in any case, because they rely not only on Rumil and Pengolodh, but also on Aelfwine.

It should be noted that the matter of Aelfwine is quite distinct from the existence of Pengolodh and Rumil. Aelfwine's place in the transmission of the legends is called into doubt by the following:

1. The Change of the World. In BoLT, there is no reason to think that a human could not reach Eressea. But following the appearance of the Numenor legend, a visit by Aelfwine to the Lonely Isle would appear to be impossible.

2. Bilbo's books. These imply that the Quenta Silmarillion and related material passed through the Elves to Bilbo and thus into the Shire. It also firmly establishes the existence of these materials in Middle-earth prior to Aelfwine's hypothetical voyage.

3. The Numenorean authorship. Sometime during or after the writing of LotR, Tolkien seems to have decided that the Quenta Silmarillion was not of Elvish origin, but was a text written in Numenor. There is a difficulty in this, since the change was in part linked to the round world mythology. But I am convinced that the Q.S. must be considered Numenorean. If so, then it was far more likely transmitted to Middle-earth through the Dunedain in the late Second Age than through Aelfwine sometime much later.

So Aelfwine must go. But then, we knew that already. But what of Rumil and Pengolodh? None of these three points seems to apply to them. Nor is there anything in Tolkien's writings that would seem to contradict either their existence or their authorship of certain texts. Bilbo's books were certainly not written by him. They are quite explicitly translations. And the Quenta Silmarillion may indeed be Numenorean, but the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta need not.

So I say: Eliminate Aelfwine. Eliminate references to Pengolodh speaking directly to Aelfwine. But don't expunge Rumil and Pengolodh.