Lambion Ontalë

[Findegil]

At long last I found some time to review this chapter. Solid work, ArcusCalion! To everythings I do not comment I agree.
About our text and it’s in Univers history: We have long since left behind the idea that what we creat could claim any kind of existence in Arda of the earlier Ages (let’s say anthing before the change from the Sixth to the Seventh Age of the Sun). Therefore I would add more freely information that could not be known by Pengolodh.
But that means of course that we must change some things from the beginning of the Lammas. I will address all these change while going throught the text:

LO-01.5: At the start we have to tell what we consider our text to be:

This is LO-01.5<editorial addition mainly drawn from> the 'Account of Tongues' which {Pengolod}[Pengolodh] of Gondolin wrote in later days in LH-02{Tol-eressea}[Eriador], using the work of Rúmil the sage of {Tun}[Tirion]. LH-03{This account Ælfwine saw when he came into the West.}

DP-10b: I think we overlooked this:

... And so still it goes in Middle-earth. DP-10b{
Yet long since, Ælfwine, the fashion of the World was changed; and we that dwell now in the Ancient West are removed from the circles of the World, and in memory is the greater part of our being: so that now we preserve rather than make anew. Wherefore, though even in Aman - beyond the circles of Arda, yet still within Eä - change goes ever on, until the End, be it slow beyond perceiving save in ages of time, nonetheless here at last in Eressëa our tongues are steadfast; and here over a wide sea of years we speak now still little otherwise than we did - and those also that perished - in the wars of Beleriand, when the Sun was young.}

Sin Quentë Quengoldo
(Thus spoke {Pengoloð}[Pengolodh])
DP-10.5<moved from above
Yet {long since, Ælfwine,}[after Pengolodh left] the fashion of the World was changed; and DP-11{we}[those] that dwell now in the Ancient West are removed from the circles of the World, and in memory is the greater part of {our}[their] being: so that now {we}[they] preserve rather than make anew. Wherefore, though even in Aman - beyond the circles of Arda, yet still within Eä - change goes ever on, until the End, be it slow beyond perceiving save in ages of time, nonetheless DP-11.5{here at last }in Eressëa {our}[their] tongues are steadfast; and {here}[there] over a wide sea of years {we}[they] speak now still little otherwise than {we}[they] did - and those also that perished - in the wars of Beleriand, when the Sun was young.

LO-03b: I think under what is said above the remark about the ‘excerpt from another work’ must go.

… whence so ever derived, was their own and Elvish.[Footnote to the text: Quoth Rúmil. LO-03b{So Ælfwine notes. This passage seems an excerpt from another work.}]

LO-03.5b: In the view of what was said we should remove the ‘we’:

... together with such records of the Avari as LO-03.5b{we here}[where set down] in {Eressëa have set down}[Eriador] in {these }later days. ...

LO-06: Was not Danian here italic?

LO-10: Equally where Pengolodh is, he may know that Sindarin the daily speech on Tol Eressëa. Therefore I think the change is unnecessary from the start and with the changes we did to get free from Pengolodh’s view point it does not makes sence at all.

LO-11: I agree to this change. Tolkien thought of Eöl as an Avari, so it is not really believable that Pengolodh could not learn any thing about theire speech before he returned to Eressëa.

Before LO-17: ‘...also called Parmaquesta, or ‘book-language.’ This is ...’ must be ‘...also called Parmaquesta, or ‘book-language’. This is ...’.

LO-22.5: I think we should just for the reason of safety remove the great changes in Etya-noldorin:

... On the other hand Túnanoldorin or Túnarin[Footnote to the text: For after a while the Vanyar forsook Túna, and there only the Noldor dwelt.] is contemporary with Parmaquesta, and shows from the first LO-22[ not] much divergence from Quenya (and Telerin),[ but nonetheless] becoming already before the Exile a{ wholly} distinct {speech}[dialect], in which many of the LO-22.5{great }changes that took place during the Exile are foreshadowed.

LO-24b: I am okay with the change to plural, and I don’t know if ‘speeches’ is useable. If you, as a native speak, find that usage strange we probably should remove it.

LO-25: With the changes discussed above, this half-sentence should be kept.

LO-29: I would edit this a bit differently. The main cauldron for such mixing as is described here would be the Havens of Sirion, I guess. Therefore this would be my way to edit:

... For many of the {Alamanyar}[Úmanyar] joined the hosts of the Noldo-chieftains; and in the days of defeat many of the Noldor took refuge LO-29b[ together ]with {Thingol in Doriath}[Sindar]. There were {Alamanyar}[Úmanyar] of Doriath in the remnant that gathered under Eärendil at the Mouths of Sirion; and Eärendil drew his blood not only from Men, but also from both Noldor and {Alamanyar}[Úmanyar].

LO-32: I think this speaks about the death of Denethor in the first Battle of Beleriand. And I would keep it at that by this edit:

They were called the ‘Green-elves’ (Laiquendi in Quenya) by the other folk of Beleriand. After the LO-32b{ruin of their realm}[death of their leader] many took refuge with Thingol in Doriath, and thus record was there preserved of their ancient tongue, and is kept still, though incomplete, in Eressëa.

LO-37: I think we must remove the ‘well-nigh 3500 years of the Sun’:

It was indeed at the landing of Fëanor LO-37b{three hundred and sixty-five long years}[more than three long Ages] of the Valar since the Noldor had passed over the Sea and left the Sindar behind.{ Now that time was in length well-nigh as three thousand and five hundred years of the Sun. }In such {an age}[a time] the tongues of Men ...

LO-40: I think ‘House of Finrafin’ worls very well here.

LO-41: This is proberlbly over done. The Wars of Beleriand started before the rising of the Sun, so even if the the First Age of the Sun ended in the year 590 F.A. the period of mingling could be morer then 10 years longer. But we would thus specifiy that the Valian Year was more then 10 times longer then a Sun year. And since we should avoid that, I am okay with ArcusCalions edit to the old statement.

LO-42.5: What about a sub-heading before LO-43? I would say ‘Of other Races’ from LotR, Appendix F would fit here very well.

LO-46: I think we should keep the usage of the Runes into the Third Age.

Behind LO-54:
- Why did you add ‘the’ before Ered-Lindon? For me it reads strange.
- Why did you change Uldor to Ulfang?

Addition from Appendix F: Oops! These editing markers by gandalf85 deteriorate the numbering by ArcusCalion! Many of them are thus doubled! To avoid this we should name all the markers for this addition LO-AF-zz, but keep the once established number (thus staring with LO-AF-55 and ending with LO-AF-70, so fare).

In these additions there is a lot of Italic to be added.

LO-AF-56 to LO-AF-68 and LO-AF-70: All these delition are based on the assumption that we can not use Thrid Ages information. As I think we should skip that assumption, we should keep the text of the original intact.

The speech of Dunland (paragraphs including LO-AF-59 to LO-AF-61): I remember that we have the info that Dunlandish was the speech of the Haladin of the First Age. Since that was alien to the speeches of the Houses of Beor and Hador, which were akin and did grow together into Andunaic, the Númenoreans missed to recognise the Dunlendings as akin. Maybe we should add that info here, but I have to search for the source.

LO-AF-61: Even so we keep the text we have to change the reference:

LO-AF-61b Of their language nothing appears in {this book}[the books], save the name ...

LO-AF-62: Here a big chunk of text was not used. I think we should mark that in our editing marker. Or should we include the remarks about the hobbits here?

LO-AF-63.5: At the start of the paragraph about Orcs, ‘Orcs and the Black Speech’ was deleted. I think we should document that.

LO-AF-66 & LO-AF-68: Even so we keep the text, the references to pages of LotR must be deleted.

Behind LO-AF-69: ‘trolls’ must be capitalised.

LO-AF-69.5: I would us at the end of the paragraph about the ‘normal’ Trolls the info about the Sindarin name:

... and in the Westlands the Stone-trolls spoke a debased form of the Common Speech. LO-AF-69.5<editorial addition Their name in Sindarin was Torog.>

LO-55: If we skip these as we probably should, we have to replace all later usages of these abbreviations by their here given meaning.

Respectfully
Findegil