Who was the greatest?????? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Alatar_69 · 11-06-2002, 12:38 AM

In everyones opinion who was each races greatest hero and or villain (eg Elves= Fingolfin and Maeglin)

burrahobbit · 11-06-2002, 01:33 AM

Ah, dear Alatar_69, this is not a matter of opinion.

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

Keneldil the Polka-dot · 11-06-2002, 06:17 PM

I'm just going to toss this out there for the heck of it. I can hear burrahobbit sharpening his graph-drawing pencil already, but what the heck.

Quote:

Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.

We have that quote from JRRT, THE MAN HIMSELF. Unequivocal, unassailable, undeniable, unbendable. I was just wondering if that quote could be seen as an opinion? Yeah, yeah, before you go and slap me with the reality stick, I know JRRT created ME and in his capacity as the creator knows all and is the final authority blah blah blah. Bear with me here. I can't quote chapter and verse, but in my readings of JRRT's commentaries I got the sense that at times he felt like he was "discovering" ME and finding out about its histories rather than inventing them. I know that is a fiction used to describe the creative process, but more authors than Tolkien have said words to the effect that the story takes on a life of its own. That the characters and events seem to move and act and they "find out" how it goes.

If you can accept that as a valid point of view, that quote of JRRT could be considered an opinion.

Personally, I would not have chosen Luthien or Feanor as the greatest if it were up to me (yeah I know it isn't). I can see the case for Galadriel though.

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ]

Manwe Sulimo · 11-06-2002, 07:14 PM

And the best of the Dwarves...?

Dúrin I, of course!

Hobbits?

Frodo!

Men?

Tough one, but go with Beren, Túrin, Elendil, or Aragorn.

Orcs?

Uhhhh....damn....

Maiar?

????

Valar?

Manwë!

And so on.

Legolas · 11-06-2002, 07:22 PM

I echo Manwe's nominations along with the following...

Man? Hurin. [Edit: I originally had "Aragorn." This was a random first-thought pick. When I think of the First Age, I generally don't think of men because of the Silmarillion's focus (and my interest's focus) on elves. After a discussion in the chat with obloquy, I revised my pick to Hurin, who, along with Turin and maybe Elendil, would be "greater" than Aragorn. Aragorn was great, but his greatness was even more apparent because of his lack of competition. He lived in different times that had different, easier conditions. He was a fine representation of man's former greatness, though.]

Maia? Olórin or Eönwë?

Whether Tolkien's feelings were more a feeling of "discovery" or whatever, he was, in fact, inventing this world. When Tolkien's thoughts are an opinion or something he is unsure, he usually denotes them as such.

[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 11-07-2002, 06:32 AM

I agree with Aragorn, being slightly higher than Beren.

lathspell · 11-07-2002, 01:49 PM

I'd actually go for Elendil or even better: Elros

Keneldil the Polka-dot · 11-07-2002, 03:00 PM

I'd say Beren. He faced Morgoth, stole a Silmaril (with help), and married Luthien. If you've seen burrahobbit's graph, Luthien maxed the scale in the "hotness" index, so that carries weight for Beren. He navigated through Dungortheb where all Ungoliant's spawn lived, and came to Doriath "by paths that no Man nor Elf else ever dared to tread" and the Girdle of Melian could not stop him. He went to the Halls of Mandos and came back. Here on earth we have only one guy who came back from the dead. Beren has a pretty impressive resume.

Legolas · 11-07-2002, 05:09 PM

My problem with rating Beren that high is his judgement. He had quite a bit of potential, but devoted all to getting a peice. I wonder myself if Elros would've proved himself great had he been given a test. I never thought much of Elrond save his wisdom, but Elros was obviously of a different mindset since he chose to be a mortal.

Alatar_69 · 11-08-2002, 12:21 AM

Honestly I think that greatest among the men was Beren.Not many other man could say they dared the malice of both Morgoth and Carcharoth and survived.

Meela · 11-08-2002, 03:50 PM

sauron. to have the dream of taking on a whole world is pretty amazing. i would love to do it.

Keneldil the Polka-dot · 11-08-2002, 04:10 PM

I can think of worse motovations than doing all the things Beren did for the love of his woman. He does lose points because his acts were centered around himself and Luthien. I don't think Elrond or Elros match up. Elrond chose to be of the Firstborn, and Elros just lived a long time and was the first King of Numenor. Seems like we don't know a whole lot about him.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 11-09-2002, 02:42 PM

Beren was totally bailed out by Luthien, the Greatest though she may be. But you're totally right about maximum points for Beren for getting Luthien in the first place, the hottest of the hot.

Aragorn's resume is pretty damn good too. Maybe we overlook it because it's so familiar to us.

Peri · 11-09-2002, 03:26 PM

Well, hmm, I'm really going to have to think about that one. Well, for the hobbits, I think that Smeagol was the worst and the best. Worst because he is the portayal of a hobbit in its worst and most wretched form. Best because, if it hadn't been for him, the ring would have never been destroyed and would have ended up in the hands of Sauron in the end.

Bill Ferny · 11-09-2002, 04:22 PM

The most powerful uruk-hai was Lurtz. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Was that milk that just sprayed from between Burrahobbit's pursed lips? I'm hungry for apples, ok? Hurl away!

burrahobbit · 11-09-2002, 04:29 PM

No. I don't do spit takes for things like that, only for really funny things. I did think "I WILL DESTROY YOU," though. But I think that a lot, so don't feel too bad.

Ringannunwen · 11-09-2002, 10:45 PM

I think some of the greatest elves may be the ones that go unnoticed.
for intance, Lindir, might have done something great that changd the course of history, but no-one new anything about it.
Lindir? you might ask, ahhh, that is my little secret for the time being.

Rose Cotton · 11-10-2002, 07:27 PM

I've just finnished the Sil so I know all about those great heros. However, there's still one hero from Lord of the Rings that has stayed close to my heart. He's brave and kind and loyal. And he's also one of the smallest:

Samwise Gamgee, the greatest hero of them all.

Legolas · 11-21-2002, 06:38 PM

Lindir was the elf who Bilbo spoke with after his song in Rivendell.

Secret is out!

Orald · 11-21-2002, 08:05 PM

The real question is who is Imin?

Orual · 11-21-2002, 08:20 PM

High-five me, Rosie! Sam Gamgee was the greatest hero ever. Not only in Middle-earth. I'm talking ever. Ever-ever. Brave and loyal and faithful and devoted and humble and...I'd better stop now or I won't be able to.

~*~Orual~*~

busybee · 11-22-2002, 12:56 PM

Elves- FINGOLFIN!!

11-23-2002, 08:06 PM

Aragorn was the bravest, most crafty character of them all. What a cool guy...

the witch king · 11-29-2002, 02:59 PM

for men i would say Ar-Pharazon is the worst and the best Beren

Alatar_69 · 12-03-2002, 04:35 AM

thanx everyone for ur replies I do also think that Aragorn's achievements are highlighted by the lack of competition so therefore that is y I would choose a first or second age man [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

the witch king · 12-03-2002, 05:33 AM

elves=Feanor
men=Ar-Pharazon
dwarves=Durin I
maiar=Sauron
valar=Manwe(or Melkor)
dragons=Glaurung
orcs=Azog

the phantom · 12-03-2002, 09:05 AM

For the debate on greatest man, check out http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...&f=1&t=002467.

Here's my opinions: (note, I said opinions, not answers)

Race: greatest hero/greatest villain
Men: Turin or Hurin/Witch King
Elves: Feanor/Eol
Hobbits: Frodo/Ted Sandyman
Ainu: Manwe/Melkor
Maia: Olorin/Sauron

11-06-2002, 12:38 AM	#1
Alatar_69 Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Rhûn, Tasmania Posts: 21	Who was the greatest?????? In everyones opinion who was each races greatest hero and or villain (eg Elves= Fingolfin and Maeglin) __________________ Blue Council Forever!

11-06-2002, 01:33 AM	#2
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	Ah, dear Alatar_69, this is not a matter of opinion. [ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ] __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

11-06-2002, 07:14 PM	#4
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	And the best of the Dwarves...? Dúrin I, of course! Hobbits? Frodo! Men? Tough one, but go with Beren, Túrin, Elendil, or Aragorn. Orcs? Uhhhh....damn.... Maiar? ???? Valar? Manwë! And so on. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

11-06-2002, 07:22 PM	#5
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	I echo Manwe's nominations along with the following... Man? Hurin. [Edit: I originally had "Aragorn." This was a random first-thought pick. When I think of the First Age, I generally don't think of men because of the Silmarillion's focus (and my interest's focus) on elves. After a discussion in the chat with obloquy, I revised my pick to Hurin, who, along with Turin and maybe Elendil, would be "greater" than Aragorn. Aragorn was great, but his greatness was even more apparent because of his lack of competition. He lived in different times that had different, easier conditions. He was a fine representation of man's former greatness, though.] Maia? Olórin or Eönwë? Whether Tolkien's feelings were more a feeling of "discovery" or whatever, he was, in fact, inventing this world. When Tolkien's thoughts are an opinion or something he is unsure, he usually denotes them as such. [ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

11-07-2002, 06:32 AM	#6
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	I agree with Aragorn, being slightly higher than Beren. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

11-07-2002, 01:49 PM	#7
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	I'd actually go for Elendil or even better: Elros __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

11-07-2002, 03:00 PM	#8
Keneldil the Polka-dot Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 128	I'd say Beren. He faced Morgoth, stole a Silmaril (with help), and married Luthien. If you've seen burrahobbit's graph, Luthien maxed the scale in the "hotness" index, so that carries weight for Beren. He navigated through Dungortheb where all Ungoliant's spawn lived, and came to Doriath "by paths that no Man nor Elf else ever dared to tread" and the Girdle of Melian could not stop him. He went to the Halls of Mandos and came back. Here on earth we have only one guy who came back from the dead. Beren has a pretty impressive resume. __________________ "Trust in the ball Jake.....and throw yourself."

11-07-2002, 05:09 PM	#9
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	My problem with rating Beren that high is his judgement. He had quite a bit of potential, but devoted all to getting a peice. I wonder myself if Elros would've proved himself great had he been given a test. I never thought much of Elrond save his wisdom, but Elros was obviously of a different mindset since he chose to be a mortal. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

11-08-2002, 12:21 AM	#10
Alatar_69 Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Rhûn, Tasmania Posts: 21	Honestly I think that greatest among the men was Beren.Not many other man could say they dared the malice of both Morgoth and Carcharoth and survived. __________________ Blue Council Forever!

11-08-2002, 03:50 PM	#11
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	sauron. to have the dream of taking on a whole world is pretty amazing. i would love to do it. __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

11-08-2002, 04:10 PM	#12
Keneldil the Polka-dot Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 128	I can think of worse motovations than doing all the things Beren did for the love of his woman. He does lose points because his acts were centered around himself and Luthien. I don't think Elrond or Elros match up. Elrond chose to be of the Firstborn, and Elros just lived a long time and was the first King of Numenor. Seems like we don't know a whole lot about him. __________________ "Trust in the ball Jake.....and throw yourself."

11-09-2002, 02:42 PM	#13
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Beren was totally bailed out by Luthien, the Greatest though she may be. But you're totally right about maximum points for Beren for getting Luthien in the first place, the hottest of the hot. Aragorn's resume is pretty damn good too. Maybe we overlook it because it's so familiar to us. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

11-09-2002, 03:26 PM	#14
Peri Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Rivendell Posts: 124	Well, hmm, I'm really going to have to think about that one. Well, for the hobbits, I think that Smeagol was the worst and the best. Worst because he is the portayal of a hobbit in its worst and most wretched form. Best because, if it hadn't been for him, the ring would have never been destroyed and would have ended up in the hands of Sauron in the end. __________________ "Ah, but I'll begowk ye there!" cried the gentleman. "Play me false, and I'll play you cunning."

11-09-2002, 04:22 PM	#15
Bill Ferny Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 390	The most powerful uruk-hai was Lurtz. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Was that milk that just sprayed from between Burrahobbit's pursed lips? I'm hungry for apples, ok? Hurl away! __________________ I prefer Gillaume d’Férny, connoisseur of fine fruit.

11-09-2002, 04:29 PM	#16
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	No. I don't do spit takes for things like that, only for really funny things. I did think "I WILL DESTROY YOU," though. But I think that a lot, so don't feel too bad. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

11-09-2002, 10:45 PM	#17
Ringannunwen Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: round here Posts: 39	I think some of the greatest elves may be the ones that go unnoticed. for intance, Lindir, might have done something great that changd the course of history, but no-one new anything about it. Lindir? you might ask, ahhh, that is my little secret for the time being. __________________ I am going now . . . if i return before i get back, please ask me to wait.

11-10-2002, 07:27 PM	#18
Rose Cotton Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: A place worse then Mordor........School! Posts: 1,075	I've just finnished the Sil so I know all about those great heros. However, there's still one hero from Lord of the Rings that has stayed close to my heart. He's brave and kind and loyal. And he's also one of the smallest: Samwise Gamgee, the greatest hero of them all. __________________ "There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone."-Remus Lupin "The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."-Pippin (now how can you argue with that logic?)

11-21-2002, 06:38 PM	#19
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Lindir was the elf who Bilbo spoke with after his song in Rivendell. Secret is out! __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

11-21-2002, 08:05 PM	#20
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	The real question is who is Imin?

11-21-2002, 08:20 PM	#21
Orual Speaker of the Dead Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Superbia Posts: 868	High-five me, Rosie! Sam Gamgee was the greatest hero ever. Not only in Middle-earth. I'm talking ever. Ever-ever. Brave and loyal and faithful and devoted and humble and...I'd better stop now or I won't be able to. ~~Orual~~ __________________ "Oh, my god! I care so little, I almost passed out!" --Dr. Cox, "Scrubs"

11-22-2002, 12:56 PM	#22
busybee Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood, Lothlorien...dream...actually the middle of nowhere...Mumbai Posts: 89	Elves- FINGOLFIN!! __________________ Pleeze does anyone know of a magical doorway or something to Middle Earth!?!?

11-23-2002, 08:06 PM	#23
Aragorn186 Guest Posts: n/a	Aragorn was the bravest, most crafty character of them all. What a cool guy...

11-29-2002, 02:59 PM	#24
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	for men i would say Ar-Pharazon is the worst and the best Beren __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

12-03-2002, 04:35 AM	#25
Alatar_69 Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Rhûn, Tasmania Posts: 21	thanx everyone for ur replies I do also think that Aragorn's achievements are highlighted by the lack of competition so therefore that is y I would choose a first or second age man [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] __________________ Blue Council Forever!

12-03-2002, 05:33 AM	#26
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	elves=Feanor men=Ar-Pharazon dwarves=Durin I maiar=Sauron valar=Manwe(or Melkor) dragons=Glaurung orcs=Azog __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

12-03-2002, 09:05 AM	#27
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	For the debate on greatest man, check out http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...&f=1&t=002467. Here's my opinions: (note, I said opinions, not answers) Race: greatest hero/greatest villain Men: Turin or Hurin/Witch King Elves: Feanor/Eol Hobbits: Frodo/Ted Sandyman Ainu: Manwe/Melkor Maia: Olorin/Sauron __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.