Tol-in-Gaurhoth (Isle of Werewolves)

[Lalaith]

I completely agree with Saucie. For example, if a Seer finds a wolf, and has to reveal himself in the process, surely s/he has made a more valuable contribution to the eventual victory than an ord, who just mooches around and finds him/herself still alive at the end of the game through sheer luck?

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

And, as I said, if you play purely for your own self-preservation, you are generally unlikely to be helping your team as much as you could.

Right, that sort of attitude pretty much kills the team aspect of the game. I mean, really, if everyone was just playing for themselves, let's just make them all Black Beornings and have a kill festival!

Hey! That's sounds fun!

[Kuruharan]

The ultimate responsibility for the victory lies with those who actually achieve it. Those who die may have contributed, but they were not responsible for the win.

Let's look at Lalaith's example of the Seer.

surely s/he has made a more valuable contribution to the eventual victory than an ord, who just mooches around and finds him/herself still alive at the end of the game through sheer luck?

While it does depend on when in the game this happens, it is the moochers who have to cast the deciding votes. Also, they will have to proceed on and win without the Seer because this situation requires that there be at least one other wolf left. The Seer contributed, but the villagers would still have to pull it out at the end.

To me it is all about who is contributing at the end. Things can still go all wrong up until the moment the fat lady sings, in spite of the greatest contributions in the world from the dearly departed.

And, as I said, if you play purely for your own self-preservation, you are generally unlikely to be helping your team as much as you could.

Or, on the other hand, you could be doing more to help your side by staying alive your ownself. Certainly, you can learn a lot from the casualties. However, this does not mean that the casualties themselves should be eager to become so.

[Boromir88]

I have always viewed this game as a team game. If I die, I still root for my team

Even when I was the grumbling, insulting man from Dor-Lomin that said all the villagers deserve to die if I'm lynched...that was me just playing the part, I still wanted the wolves to go down. So, yes, I agree.

I think it's got a lot to do with sports, you want to be on the winning team.

You can die on the winning side but I don't think the dead player can really claim too much credit for the victory.

I would disagree here. Eomer was the first to die in the last game, but I think he deserved credit for being the hunter and bringing down Cailin the wolf with him. He died early, yet he contributed and helped the villagers greatly.

It does have a lot to do with a team game. Everyone's got to work together. The villagers I think especially, since they can't communicate except in the game, have to set aside whatever "grudges" and work together. Where the wolves who can PM with eachother are able to devise strategies and their plan of a attack. I think villagers have to do the same if they want to win. I don't think individualism is what gets villagers to win.

I'm reminded of WWIIX, with the agreed mass lynching of all the innocent villagers (except the two known innocents myself and Sauce), wo we could finally catch the Bear Gurthang. Surely, without all the villagers cooperation in the mass-lynching, who knows what would have happened.

[Kuruharan]

I think villagers have to do the same if they want to win. I don't think individualism is what gets villagers to win.

But the villagers aren't on a team because they don't know who their fellow innocents are. They cannot trust anyone (or at least, they shouldn't) until much later in the game. Even then nothing is certain until the game is over.

I would disagree here. Eomer was the first to die in the last game, but I think he deserved credit for being the hunter and bringing down Cailin the wolf with him. He died early, yet he contributed and helped the villagers greatly.

That he did. However, things could still have gone all wrong for the village. He was not there at the end.

I'm reminded of WWIIX, with the agreed mass lynching of all the innocent villagers (except the two known innocents myself and Sauce), wo we could finally catch the Bear Gurthang. Surely, without all the villagers cooperation in the mass-lynching, who knows what would have happened.

I've never been particularly comfortable with the idea of lynching more than two at a time. Double lynchings are find and good...triple lynchings are questionable...anything more than that is all wrong as far as I am concerned.

Anyway, I don't find that to be particularly relevant.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

To me it is all about who is contributing at the end. Things can still go all wrong up until the moment the fat lady sings, in spite of the greatest contributions in the world from the dearly departed.

It's precisely the same in team sports games. Take the football example I gave earlier (for those in the US, I am talking about soccer ). It's the cup final. Your team is 2-1 up. 20 minutes from the end, your manager substitutes one of the goal scorers because he has been injured in a tackle. He has certainly contributed to your team's chances, but it could still go wrong. The other side could score 2 more goals in the 20 minutes remaining (or score 1 more goal and win on penalties). It's down to the players left on the pitch to maintain your team's lead. Assuming that your team does end up winning, surely the substituted goal scorer deserves to share in the victory just as much as the players who remained playing until the end.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Or, on the other hand, you could be doing more to help your side by staying alive your ownself. Certainly, you can learn a lot from the casualties. However, this does not mean that the casualties themselves should be eager to become so.

I am most certainly not saying that innocent villagers should play with reckless disregard to the possibility of being lynched. A modicum of self-preservation is generally necessary because the villagers' aim is to lynch a Wolf and not an innocent (although there may be circumstances which would justify a suicidal approach). But the point is that the act of self-preservation here is directed towards the team effort not individual glory. And there is no justification for an ordinary villager going out of the way to avoid getting killed by the Wolves at night because, one way or another, an innocent is going to be killed and, if it's not you, it might be a gifted. Only gifteds are justified in making any particular effort to avoid the Wolves' jaws at night.

You see, it's all about playing for the team rather than purely for personal glory. And, if you do play for the team but end up getting killed, you deserve to share in the victory should your team end up winning.

But the villagers aren't on a team because they don't know who their fellow innocents are.

The fact that you do not know who your team-mates are does not alter the fact that you are playing in a team. As Boromir88 correctly states, despite not knowing who their team-mates are, the villagers still have to do their best to get round that problem and work as a team if they are to win.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

That he did. However, things could still have gone all wrong for the village. He was not there at the end.

Yes, but they could have gone a lot worse had he not taken down a Wolf with him so early on. The fact that he was not there at the end does not, in my opinion, detract from his contribution, or his right to share in the villagers' victory, one iota.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Eonwe

another thing: have you decided on what kind of roles there will be? just curious.

Yes, I have.

Our village consists of:
3 wolves
Seer
Ranger
Hunter
The muchly debated Cursed
8 ordos

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by dancing spawn of ungoliant

Yes, I have.

Our village consists of:
3 wolves
Seer
Ranger
Hunter
The muchly debated Cursed
8 ordos

Shoot. No Cobbler. I guess that means there will probably be heroic suicides (a cop-out in my opinion). *LMP sighs*

[Lalaith]

I don't see how the presence of a Cobbler would preclude heroic suicides. Indeed, it would make them even more likely as the Cobbler himself is the one most likely, on behalf of his lupine friends, to make such a sacrifice...

[Lalaith]

Oh and sorry for double posting but I've just remembered why lmp doesn't like heroic suicides. *cough* WWIV *cough*

[Kath]

Shoot. No Cobbler. I guess that means there will probably be heroic suicides (a cop-out in my opinion). *LMP sighs*

Unless spawn bans them.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I don't see how the presence of a Cobbler would preclude heroic suicides. Indeed, it would make them even more likely as the Cobbler himself is the one most likely, on behalf of his lupine friends, to make such a sacrifice...

Oh and sorry for double posting but I've just remembered why lmp doesn't like heroic suicides. *cough* WWIV *cough*

Well, granted, that didn't help, but I think it's better to have the give and take of discussions. Offering to die is like having a fifth ace in poker. But the Cobbler's presence in the game (or at least the threat of it) means that if anybody does offer to commit suicide, that person will be suspected of being the cobbler instead of a hero; therefore the cop-out is less likely to be used.

[Kuruharan]

Some people take this a bit seriously, don't they.

Oh well, its a playing philosophy difference and not really worth arguing too much about.

[Lalaith]

*tsk* Kuru, we're not arguing, we're discussing. (that's what my parents used to say to me when I was little)

[Kuruharan]

It is not worth taking the time to indulge in lengthy discussions, then.

And your parents were just trying to shelter you.

[Thenamir]

I have somehow just discovered this Werewolf phenomenon, and was wondering how to jump in. I saw my name mentioned on a couple of "dream team" posts, and thought I'd check it out.

[Mister Underhill]

I sort of agree with both camps here. On one hand, I agree that a dead villager/wolf shares in the victory of his or her team, but on the other hand, I agree with Kuru that villagers should play as hard as they can to stay alive. Part of the fun of the game for me is being an unjustly accused innocent and trying to avoid the rope. It's a classic situation, but one most people (fortunately) never really face.

[Glirdan]

Ok, am I correct in thinking that you wanted to start the game tomorrow Spawn? And if so, when will you be sending out the roles?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

The ultimate responsibility for the victory lies with those who actually achieve it. Those who die may have contributed, but they were not responsible for the win.

[RANT]

That's like saying that in the end of a performance, only the lead actors get the credit. However, without supporting roles, tech support, stage crew, costuming, a fantastic director, publicity specialists, proper lighting and things of that nature, you'd end up with naked people on an empty stage with no audience. The show would, in all interprations of the word, suck. Without the players that contribute and then die, the game would not end how it does, it would not run as it does, and nothing would work out at all how it has, is, or ever will.

[/RANT]

PS: suicides are bad.

PPS: Thenamir: you're too late, I think, to join this particular game, but you join by saying "I want to play" during the "recruiting" phase. I could be wrong, but I think WWJIII might be recruiting now, as WWJII just ended. Those games are fantastic for getting into the swing of things because you have a wider variety of players more interested in the fun of the game than in maniacal winning.

[Eonwe]

indeed, think on this. the three wolves work it out and two totally backstab the other in cold blood at the very beginng, thereby putting them in the clear for most of the game (or some varriation of this situation.). shouldn't the wolf that dies to put the others in the clear share equally the larrels of the victors. in my opinion...yes...

[mormegil]

I think we are missing what Kuru is actually saying. He, if I understand it correctly, is not saying that the dead of the team that wins are not winners themselves but that it is the ultimate responsibility of those who remain to win the game. Past sacrifices however noble of nefarious are not any worth unless the remainder of the team is victorious. Therefore, again, it is up to the living to win and past events while helpful do not ultimately win the game, the decision of the remaining does.

[Kuruharan]

you'd end up with naked people on an empty stage

mustn'tsaywhatIamthinking...mustn'tsaywhatIamthink ing...

I think we are missing what Kuru is actually saying. He, if I understand it correctly, is not saying that the dead of the team that wins are not winners themselves but that it is the ultimate responsibility of those who remain to win the game. Past sacrifices however noble of nefarious are not any worth unless the remainder of the team is victorious. Therefore, again, it is up to the living to win and past events while helpful do not ultimately win the game, the decision of the remaining does.

Leave it to mormegil.

(Trying one last time) To me, the decisive point is the very end. That is where victory or defeat is decided. The contributions of the players on both sides who were killed have led the game up to that point, but up until somebody wins anything could happen. Now admittedly, there are times when the result is a foregone conclusion a DAY or so before the end, but it is still the responsibility of the survivors (of whichever side) to refrain from screwing everything up.

The best games are the ones where there is all kinds of dramatic tension at the end (all the games I've played have been like this... )

EDIT: When are our roles going to be sent to us?

DOUBLE EDIT: I personally wouldn't have any problem with Thenamir joining at the last moment. It is just that after the roles have been sent out there should be no new enrollment. But that is just me, and possibly irrelevant to the discussion.

[Glirdan]

Completely agree with you on that Kuru. I am also going to tell you now that the next WWJ game has been postponed unless the next mod wants a small game because there aren't really a whole lot of people to pley in the game because a lot of people are either taking a break or playing in this WW game. We will be looking into another WWJ game as soon as more people come back and want to play in the game.

[Kath]

Does anyone know what time this game starts? I got a bit confused with all the discussion over time zones.

[Meneltarmacil]

I'm somewhat confused. What date does this game start, anyway? If it is November 20th, I really can't play.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

I sort of agree with both camps here. On one hand, I agree that a dead villager/wolf shares in the victory of his or her team, but on the other hand, I agree with Kuru that villagers should play as hard as they can to stay alive. Part of the fun of the game for me is being an unjustly accused innocent and trying to avoid the rope. It's a classic situation, but one most people (fortunately) never really face.

Hear hear! I couldn't have said it better.

[Lalaith]

Spawn said the game would start at 9pm tonight. I haven't received a role yet, has anyone else?

[Anguirel]

Not me. Let's be patient, I'm sure we'll get them on time...

[Lalaith]

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound rude or importunate vis a vis our esteemed modess. Just didn't want to miss out on anything....

[Glirdan]

It's ok Lalaith. I haven't gotten my role either so it's probably safe to asume that no one has. Hopefully nothing bad has befallen our Modess Godess

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Dear Werewolf 13 players,

I'm finally home (I've had school today) and I'll send you your roles soon. The game begins today with a 24-hour-long Night phase, so everyone should have enough time to adopt their roles before Day 1 which begins on Sunday 9:00 pm. GMT.

Thanks and sorry for the inconvenience.

[Anguirel]

Excellent! I can't wait...but I will...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

On one hand, I agree that a dead villager/wolf shares in the victory of his or her team ...

Well, that was my main gripe with Kuru's argument - the suggestion that the contribution of those who died somehow didn't count towards the victory.

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

... but on the other hand, I agree with Kuru that villagers should play as hard as they can to stay alive.

Surely it depends upon the player's role and the circumstances of the game? There are times at which a player should do his or her best to stay alive. But there are other times when a move likely to result in their death will be a good move.

Originally Posted by Fea

PS: suicides are bad.

Similarly, that depends upon role and the state of the game.

You see, the beauty of this game is that there is often no "one size fits all" strategy. A particular move may be a brilliant masterstroke, or it may spell disaster. It all depends upon circumstances. Blanket statements do not capture the dynamism and variety of the game.

[wilwarin538]

Just thought I'd point out that everyone playing in the WW game should get themselves in invisible mode.

Thank you.

[Gurthang]

Spawn, if you haven't sent out roles yet(which I assume you have), I can play now. The thing I was going to be gone for was much shorter than expected, and is actually done already. But it looks like I'm too late anyway.

Oh, well. I'll get to read it at least.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

Spawn, if you haven't sent out roles yet(which I assume you have), I can play now. The thing I was going to be gone for was much shorter than expected, and is actually done already. But it looks like I'm too late anyway.

Oh, well. I'll get to read it at least.

Aww, I have already sent out the roles. As much as I'd like to have you in my game, I can't add you on the list anymore.

[wilwarin538]

Just realised the time difference. It seems that the days and nights start at 4pm for me. So I just want you all to know that you all will only hear from me(and Wayne and most likely Glirdan) at the start and very end of the Day phases. Illbe able to post right after the Day starts for about 6 hours, and then the hour before voting is closed. Maybesometimes I could post during the Day, but its unlikely.

Thank you.

[Glirdan]

SHOOT!!!!! You won't see me a whole lot because of my musical practices. So I'll be voting early tonight and it will be completely random.

[bilbo_baggins]

Um, wow the game has surely changed since I played in Werewolf 1! Could someone explain the abbreviations and what numbering system the games follow so I could hop on the next gravy train? Thanks...

[Boromir88]

Um, wow the game has surely changed since I played in Werewolf 1! Could someone explain the abbreviations and what numbering system the games follow so I could hop on the next gravy train? Thanks...

Let's see

WW= Werewolf

WWJ=Werewolf Junior (we had an issue where a lot of people wanted to play and we couldn't have one game so "Junior" was started.)

And it's numbered by Roman Numerals. So, Right now It's Tol-in-Gauroth XIII (13), next one would by Tol-in-Gauroth XIV, but "sign-ups" don't start until the current game is over.

Hope that helps.