Seixas - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

03-07-2002, 05:20 PM

Were the Elves of the 1st age more powerfull than the 3rd age ones? Why.
Thanks in advance.

Glim Iceholder · 03-07-2002, 06:33 PM

The difference is most of the Elves of the first age lived among the Valar in Valinor and beheld the light of the Two Trees of Yavanna. Someone else can probably provide you with a more in-depth explaination.

Thingol · 03-07-2002, 09:21 PM

I wouldn't say that, Glorfindel, Elrond, Cirdan, Galadriel, Celeborn, Thranduil Ellodan, and Ellohir were all very powerful elves that lived during the Third Age. I don't think that the power of elves diminishes with time, it is just that by the time of the Third Age most of the very powerful elves resided in Valinor.

[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

Orald · 03-08-2002, 01:42 AM

Actually, each generation of elves is supposedly weaker than the last. I don't have an exact quote, but it is stated somewhere, if not in my exact words. Starting with the Darkening of Valinor maybe, but maybe starting at the Awakening.

Ahanarion · 03-09-2002, 12:57 AM

It can't start at the awakening because Feanor's fea was stronger than Finwe's. I think it has to do with the fact that there were less Elves in the Third Age than in the First Age that would mean there were less powerful ones. It also may have to do with the fact that most of the remaining elves were Silvan or Sindarin in origin not Eldarin.

[ March 09, 2002: Message edited by: Ahanarion ]

Orald · 03-09-2002, 01:36 AM

I am not talking about just the elves in Middle-Earth, but all elves. Certainly there could not have been more elves in First Age Valinor than in Third Age Valinor.

Feanor's case was a rare exception. Another exception would be Galadriel, the greatest elf except maybe Feanor. These are the only exceptions ever mentioned.

Ahanarion · 03-09-2002, 03:00 AM

I meant less Elves in ME in the Third Age who knows the Elves of Third Age Valinor may have been just as strong as the Elves of First Age Valinor. Maybe the Elves of Third Age ME were weaker but if so it would probably have something to do with the fading and growing weary of the world.

Orald · 03-09-2002, 03:39 AM

I am not guessing here, there is an actual quote that has somehow evaded my searches, and it states something to the effect that elves wane througout the history of Arda, each generation less and less than the previous. Since no on else has posted the quote, I guess I will try looking for it another time.

Maeglin · 03-09-2002, 10:29 AM

I'd like to see it.

Turgon_of_Gondolin · 03-09-2002, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Glorfindel, Elrond, Cirdan, Galadriel, Celeborn, Thranduil Ellodan, and Ellohir were all very powerful elves that lived during the Third Age

I don't know about Thranduil Ellodan and Ellohir but Glorfindel, Elrond, Cirdan, Galadriel, and Celeborn were all born in the first age. That is probably why they are the strongest of the elves in 3rd age middle earth.

littlemanpoet · 03-09-2002, 09:42 PM

From The Silmarillion, Chapter 3, Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor:

Quote:

In the beginning the Elder Children of Iluvatar were stronger and greater than they have since become; but not more fair, for though the beauty of the Quendi in the days of their youth was beyond all other beauty that Iluvatar has caused to be, it has not perished, but lives in the West, and sorrow and wisdom have enriched it.

The phrase, "have since become" may arguably be thought of as Frodo and Bilbo having written these lines in The Red Book of Westmarch, which places it at the end of the Third Age. I think that is how Tolkien meant it, although it could also be argued that this is to be understood as weaker in the 20th and 21st centuries of our own era, which I don't agree with. Nevertheless, that still argues for a gradual weakening of the Eldar from their beginning.

[ March 09, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

03-07-2002, 05:20 PM	#1
Seixas Guest Posts: n/a	Seixas Were the Elves of the 1st age more powerfull than the 3rd age ones? Why. Thanks in advance.

03-07-2002, 09:21 PM	#3
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	I wouldn't say that, Glorfindel, Elrond, Cirdan, Galadriel, Celeborn, Thranduil Ellodan, and Ellohir were all very powerful elves that lived during the Third Age. I don't think that the power of elves diminishes with time, it is just that by the time of the Third Age most of the very powerful elves resided in Valinor. [ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ] __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

03-09-2002, 12:57 AM	#5
Ahanarion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tirion upon Tuna Posts: 94	It can't start at the awakening because Feanor's fea was stronger than Finwe's. I think it has to do with the fact that there were less Elves in the Third Age than in the First Age that would mean there were less powerful ones. It also may have to do with the fact that most of the remaining elves were Silvan or Sindarin in origin not Eldarin. [ March 09, 2002: Message edited by: Ahanarion ] __________________ Ohtari i Noldor Hosta!

03-09-2002, 03:00 AM	#7
Ahanarion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tirion upon Tuna Posts: 94	I meant less Elves in ME in the Third Age who knows the Elves of Third Age Valinor may have been just as strong as the Elves of First Age Valinor. Maybe the Elves of Third Age ME were weaker but if so it would probably have something to do with the fading and growing weary of the world. __________________ Ohtari i Noldor Hosta!

03-09-2002, 10:29 AM	#9
Maeglin Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nan Elmoth Posts: 136	I'd like to see it. __________________ The fool speaks of what he knows. The wise knows what he speaks of.

03-07-2002, 06:33 PM	#2
Glim Iceholder Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 24	The difference is most of the Elves of the first age lived among the Valar in Valinor and beheld the light of the Two Trees of Yavanna. Someone else can probably provide you with a more in-depth explaination.

03-08-2002, 01:42 AM	#4
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	Actually, each generation of elves is supposedly weaker than the last. I don't have an exact quote, but it is stated somewhere, if not in my exact words. Starting with the Darkening of Valinor maybe, but maybe starting at the Awakening.

03-09-2002, 01:36 AM	#6
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	I am not talking about just the elves in Middle-Earth, but all elves. Certainly there could not have been more elves in First Age Valinor than in Third Age Valinor. Feanor's case was a rare exception. Another exception would be Galadriel, the greatest elf except maybe Feanor. These are the only exceptions ever mentioned.

03-09-2002, 03:39 AM	#8
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	I am not guessing here, there is an actual quote that has somehow evaded my searches, and it states something to the effect that elves wane througout the history of Arda, each generation less and less than the previous. Since no on else has posted the quote, I guess I will try looking for it another time.