Can Elves kill Ringwraiths?

I know that Ringwraiths were untouchable to mortal men unless they carried blades blessed with an Elven spell. But what about Elves? Where they able to fight The Nazgul?

[Naurlothwen]

I REALLY wish that I could say. I probably have it somewhere in my brain.. sigh. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

however the fact that mortal men could in fact kill Ringwraiths if they weilded swards blessed by the elves does give a clue that elves may be able to kill them. After all why would an man be able To kill a Ringwraith just because some Elf blessed it? It doesnt make sence unless elves in fact could kill them?"

But then again as its a spell...
I have a feeling that elves may be able to fill Ringwraiths

[Keeper-of-Vilya]

I think elves could - the prophecy said no living man could hinder the lord of the ringwraiths, which is why Eowyn and Merry were able to kill him. Elves are not men so I think they could kill a ringwraith.

[GreatWarg]

Good point Vilya.

[the real findorfin]

The lord wraith was really cocky because of the prophecy, why didn't he think about elves or dwarves???

[Daniel Telcontar]

Glorfindel does manage to scare the Ringwraiths so much, that they ride into the river and drowns. And the Witch-King flees when Glorfindel arrives at the Battle of Fornost. And both Ecthelion and Glorfindel (he is a cool guy, isn't he) has killed Balrogs, which are way cooler enemies than Ringwraiths. So I think that Elves could kill Wraiths, if they had blades made by elven smiths.

[the real findorfin]

Can someone elaborate on the Battle of Fornost?

Naurlothwen, nice picture of arwen. Where did u get it from?

[Daniel Telcontar]

I am not sure, but I think it is the battle where the Witch-King defeats Arnor and destroys it. An army from Falas, Gondor (led by Prince Earnur) and Rivendell (led by Glorfindel) then appears, and Earnur pursues the Witch-King, who tries to kill him. Glorfindel comes and the Witch-King flees because he do not dare attack him (Glorfindel is way cool).

[burrahobbit]

Anything COULD kill a ring wraith, they just DIDN'T. Pfft, my puppy dog could have killed them all single-handedly if I had put explosives on him first.

[obloquy]

I agree with Naurloaperhduhebrockfmgmn when she says:

I have a feeling that elves may be able to fill Ringwraiths

I think it's very likely that Elves could fill the Ringwraiths. To the brim, I'd imagine.

[Tarthang]

Obloquay I believe you mean fill it to the rim with Brimm.

Anyhow, only the Leader Of Ringwraith's was unkillable by men (literally). So any of the others were fair game to anyone with the means (i.e. having the willpower)to stand up to a Nazgul. I wouldn't discount that it would require a blade (or other such weapon) of Westernesse (Numorean) or Elvish make to actually harm one though.

[Artilien]

I think elves could kill Ringwraiths. It would have no sence if men who got blades blessed by elven spell would be able to kill Ringwraiths and elves, who also have elvish blades (so blessed bye elves) wouldnt be able to kill them

[burrahobbit]

Anyhow, only the Leader Of Ringwraith's was unkillable by men (literally).

There is a difference between can and will. A difference between being able to do something and actually doing it. Everything from my puppy dog to Eru above had the ability to kill the Witch-king, but only Eowyn actually did it.

[Heen-1]

And both Ecthelion and Glorfindel (he is a cool guy, isn't he) has killed Balrogs, which are way cooler enemies than Ringwraiths.

What do you mean cooler?i think this would make an interesting thread....

[obloquy]

I think burrahobbit's point, if he doesn't mind me spelling it out for everyone, is that the prophecy the Witch-King quotes to Eowyn doesn't mean he can't be killed by a man, just that he won't be killed by one. It was a prophecy spoken by Glorfindel, not some spell to protect the Witch-King from his foes. As burrahobbit says, his dog could've killed the Witch-King, given the right circumstances.

Glorfindel would have kicked his *** mad crazy-like. And I don't know what the King was thinking when he talked smack to Gandalf.

[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[burrahobbit]

Exactly. Glorfindel would have killed the Witch-king but good if he had chased him down instead of letting him run away, and Earnur might have also if not for his horse.

[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[Jessica Jade]

The wraiths' most deadly weapon is, undoubtedly, fear. And fear is very powerful. As it is said in F. Herbert's Dune, "Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration." The Nazgûl were able to make people frightened beyond belief by calling out to eachother with their chilling, deadly voices. With a weapon, such as this, they did not need to fight with swords, cannons, etc, because when people are afraid they don't want to fight-- if their fear conquers them, then their ability to rationalize is eradicated, they want nothing but to cower down and hide, like they people of Minas Tirith did in The Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

Of course men or elves can kill the wraiths. Men were just too afraid. And elves...don't know if they ever had the chance. Besides Glorindel, that is...but then, at that time he wanted to lead Frodo&co away from the Wraiths and into Rivendell. It was too big a risk to kill the Wraiths and not the right time.

[TarElendil]

the sword merry used to smite the witch king with wasnt Elvish. it was of Westernesse, From Numenor. As in from men. Elves could destroy the witch king in the same means merry and eowyn did. But in no way could they do it otherwise (save, ofcourse, destroying the one Ring)

[TarElendil]

(replying to a comment earlier)
about the quote from glorfindel "not by the hand of man shall he fall" it was a prediction. not stating what could kill him and what couldnt. But what would. No elf could kill a nazgul with an ordinary weapon. Men had just the same chance of killing a Nazgul save that the Elves did not fear them nor any other ghosts of men.

[Brinniel]

I've always found this a bit strange. Aren't the ringwraiths neither living nor dead? If so, how did Eowyn manage to kill the witch king? How is it possible for anyone to kill a ringwraith if they are not alive? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

[burrahobbit]

Ringwraiths are totally alive, just red shifted into the lower end of the spectrum.

[Brinniel]

Are they? Well, perhaps I read something wrong.

[burrahobbit]

And of course by "totally alive" I mean "you're absolutely right." They sort of live in the dead things place and the living things place, moreso in the dead things place. I was thinking that I would be fancy like they were acually the same place but at different energy levels, but that isn't exactly right. They are more like places that overlap, like the pointy oval part of a venn diagram. I would still call them alive, though, as they never really died. Having said that, I think it would be a good ideaa to define death. In the context of Middle-earth I would say that a good definition for death would be when the spirit (fea) leaves the body (hroa) and goes off to do whatever it's going to do. The Rings of the Nazgul trapped the spirits Nazgul in the bodies of the Nazgul, preventing death by any means other than violence. Over time the rings and spirits of the Nazgul consumed the bodies of the Nazgul until there was nearly nothing left. Interestingly enough, the elves are faced with a similar problem. As the ages pass for them their spirits consume their bodies bit by bit, causing them to fade from the world. It casts an intersting light on the Nazgul to think of them this way (which I have never done before now).

[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[Susan Delgado]

So basically what you're saying is, this is what happens when men become immortal. When men become immortal, they fade the same way the elves' do, but much faster because their bodies were not designed to last very long, so they aren't as strong. This would happen even independent of any magic rings they happen to pick up. Interesting

[obloquy]

boy am i glad to see we've acquired a new know-it-all. welcome to the damn downs tarelendil, i'm bitter.

[TarElendil]

why thank you.
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[TarElendil]

the Nine Kings were consumed by the power of the Nine Rings. The rings were under the command of the One. The evil will of sauron was in all those rings, thus entering the minds of all the men and turning them to mere shadows of what they once were.

[burrahobbit]

Yes, Susan, it looks like that is what I was saying. The rings would have sped up the fading process, what with being evil and all.

[Ar-Luman]

When Glorfindel (reincarnate) met the fellowship on the road to Rivendell he mentions that even he a elf prince could not withstand the nine when they are together. That leads me to belive that he is able to withstand one maybe more and in turn kill them if the oppurtunity presented itself.

[Orome]

the passage goes something like this: even Glorfindel and Aragorn, on foot, could not withstand the Nine horsed

one of implacations of this that people are continually arguing about is that if the Nine were on foot, Glorfindel and Aragorn could withstand them. and I beleive that all of the above posters that Fear is the Nine's greatist weapons and in great likelyhood the one that kept them, at least one, from being killed earlier. in Osgiliath prehaps boromir could have killed one. who knows?

[Ar-Luman]

thanks for the correction

[Angmar_the_Horrible]

@TarElendil:

I totally agree with you - the Ringwraith
CANNOT be killed by men, hobbits or ELVES
using ordinary weapons. The sword that killed
the Witch-King was from Westernesse, made in
the wars against Angmar - and the magic on
it was not elvish but it was specially against the Witch-King of Angmar. That was
thr reason why it was able to break the spell and made it possible for Eowyn to kill
him. It was made long ago for this occasion,
that has nothing to do with Elvish magic.

The Elves are able to injure and weaken the
Nazgul, but not to kill them. That would be
too easy, and they were not that dangerous if
every Elf who is brave enough can kill them.

And the Elves are overrated a lot, specially
in the Third Age. They lost a lot of their
power and they are leaving Middle Earth!

If it would have been necessary, the Witch-
King would have even entered Lothlorien
searching for the Ring - and I don't think
that Galadriel would have prevent that. But
that is another topic...

[burrahobbit]

Let me quote a bit of Tolkien at you.

GLORFINDEL: "Hi, I'm Glorfindel."
WITCH-KING: "Oh no! *runs*

There you have it, straight from the fingers of the author.*


*"But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and [...] the Witch-king turned to flight and passed into the shadows."

Read the whole thing before you post anymore.

[ September 29, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[Angmar_the_Horrible]

I know that part of Tolkien, don't worry.
But he doesn't explain WHY the Witch-King
flees. He fears the magic and he knows that
a elven-warrior IS a serious enemy that can
weaken him - but not kill him!

If Elves can kill Ringwraiths - why do they
not take their bow and arrow and actually
DO it?? For them there is no need to get
near a Nazgul for killing him, and they don't
do - because they can't!

Fact is, Tolkien doesn't say something like
that in his work, quoting the scene from the
battle of Fornost is nonsense and no prove
at all!

[burrahobbit]

Because that wouldn't be fun to read.

I'm not entirely convinced that elves can actually kill the nazgul. I think they fear the elves because they see them in their true form, like pure light and that is likely to drive them wild wth fright like someone that ha s a genuine phobia against, say, heights. This would explain why at the ford they dashed into the water at the sight of Glorfindel.

[burrahobbit]

Or maybe it's because Glorfindel is a total badass. He killed a balrog by himself. Have you ever done that? I bet not, because it's really hard. Way harder than killing a nazgul, at least.

[ September 29, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[Tirned Tinnu]

Oye, do we forget easily! I was mystified until I read this entire thread, and remembered what the RingWraiths were all about!
It would not matter if an Elf slashed them down a thousand times, so long as the One Ring existed. If they were unhorsed, or dis-embodied, their spirits would just find their way back to Mordor, to reincorporate themselves into a new host. Disgusting, yes?
Think of the one that Legolas shot down! If that creature was in any way alive, it certainly was not going to live through a fall from the sky. How did it come back to assail the fields of Pelinnor? It had to float back to Mordor, and there take another body and another creature to ride.
(Thus also brings to mind the Riders unhorsed at the Ford. They'd be washed to the Sea, and what then, would they walk all the way to Mordor?! Of course not.)

So, you see, the Elves saw the futility of trying to kill what is unkillable, until the One Ring be destroyed.

[ September 30, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

[burrahobbit]

If they were unhorsed, or dis-embodied, their spirits would just find their way back to Mordor, to reincorporate themselves into a new host.

Where does Tolkien say that? I don't remember it.

Thus also brings to mind the Riders unhorsed at the Ford. They'd be washed to the Sea, and what then, would they walk all the way to Mordor?! Of course not.

I know! Nobody would ever walk to Mordor! That's just dumb!

[burrahobbit]

If they were unhorsed, or dis-embodied, their spirits would just find their way back to Mordor

"Unhorsed" is not a poetic way of saying that somebody has been killed, it means that they don't have a horse anymore. "Dismounted" means the exact same thing as "unhorsed". When you say "Jimmy was dismounted," you don't mean "Jimmy died a horrible death." You mean "Jimmy was forced off of his horse and now he has to walk if he wants to get anywhere. It's really too bad that he can't see very well and the only place he can get a new horse is so far away, that is going to be a very long walk."

Think of the one that Legolas shot down! If that creature was in any way alive, it certainly was not going to live through a fall from the sky. How did it come back to assail the fields of Pelinnor?

Who says it did? How many Nazgul did Legolas shoot down? How many Nazgul are there? How many Nazgul attacked Minas Tirith? How many extra Nazgul does that make?

(Hint: six or seven extras.)

So, you see, the Elves saw the futility of trying to kill what is unkillable, until the One Ring be destroyed.

Eowyn never killed anything in her whole life honest I swear!

I was mystified until I read this entire thread, and remembered what the RingWraiths were all about!

You forgot again, though.