Sam´s "magic" rope?

Was Sam´s rope imbued with magical powers?

[Thingol]

In a word yes. Tolkien described items with magical properties as made by something called lore. The palantiri, the phial of Galadriel, and even the Silmarils are all examples of items made by lore.

[Voronwe]

Lore, though, is just another, perhaps slightly more archaic, word for knowledge.

Sam's rope was probably made by Galadriel herself. It probably had the same kind of 'elf magic' assosiated with it as the Mirror. Tolkien, to my knowledge, never really explained how such magic worked. It's left a mystery - in my opinnion rightly so.

[Orodhromeus]

I don't think the rope was made by Galadriel herself, it was more like the Lórien folk in general. And it's clear that the rope is "magic" from the point of view of Hobbits, but totally common to the Elves that made it. For all the other races, Elves had magic skills. They call them magic because they don't know how they are achieved. A radio set is magic for an 18th century man, however skillful/wise he is.

[lathspell]

The ropes might, i think, be called 'magical' for us mortal men. For the elves it's just daily business though. They don't even know what magic is, because they use it all the time. Remember Galadriel saying, when they're at her mirror:

'For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not clearly understand what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, is you will, is the magic of Galadriel.'

The elves roughly know what is meant by non-magic people if they say 'magic'. Maybe it has something to do with them understanding magic and other folk not understanding it and thinking of it as weird and outlandish.

[VanimaEdhel]

Sam's rope was magical, as we established. It was made by the people of Lorien, MAYBE by Galadriel herself (did it say somewhere that it was? I forget...time to read the books again, I guess). It seemed to have a "brain" of sorts, it seems, and to "serve" it's wielder, such as "letting go" of the rock, etc.

I wish I had a rope like that...

[Mhoram]

I seem to remember it being said that the cloaks the company recieved were made by Galadriel and her handmaidens, but i'm not positive. It's possible the rope was too but I don't see why the other elves wouldn't have been just as capable of making rope with 'magic' properties. The ropes weren't held as a high prize to anyone other than Sam. BTW, didn't sam talk with some elf for a second about the making of the ropes? That would also imply that they weren't made by Galadriel.

[Lomelinde]

I think the rope was endowed with some form of enchantment, for after Sam and Frodo had climbed down it,then only after Sam mentioned Galadriel's name did it "let go" of the rock it was tied around.Also, I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but when they bound Gollum with the rope, he screamed horribly and claimed that the rope was "burning" him.Elvish magic? Possibly...

[Sam Gamgee]

Sam's magic rope was given to him by the elves (dur) and I do think that somehow, it was magical. Not like totally obvious magic, rather like Gandalf's, but more subtle. When he ties the rope to the stump up on the cliff so that he and Frodo can get down, he leaves it up there! BUT, when he tugs on it to wish it farewell, it comes down gently, almost as if it was answering his call.

So, is it magic? Indeed, I think so. But quiet magic, rather like Sam has on certain members of the audence, be it of the book or the movie, the silent magic he shares with us, his ability to keep devoted to Frodo, his power in Mordor, his resistance of the Ring, it's all magic in it's own way. So, yes. The rope, in my eyes, is magic.

[Lostgaeriel]

For reference:
(Since no one else has bothered to give us any of the relevant quotes. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

...And they added also coils of rope, three to each boat. Slender they looked, but strong, silken to the touch, grey of hue like the elven-cloaks.
'What are these?' asked Sam, handling one that lay upon the greensward.
'Ropes indeed!' answered an Elf from the boats. 'Never travel far without a rope! And one that is long and strong and light. Such are these. They many be a help in many needs.'
'You don't need to tell me that!' said Sam. 'i came without any, and I've been worried ever since. But I was wondering what these were made of, knowing a bit about rope-making: it's in the family as you might say.'
'They are made of hithlain,' said the Elf, 'but there is no time now to instruct you in the art of their making. Had we known that this craft delighted you, we could have taught you much. But now alas! unless you should at some time return hither, you must be content with our gift. May it serve you well!'

Farewell to Lothlórien

Sam is familiar with the craft of rope-making, yet these ropes are strange to him - apparently because the material is unknown to him. But it seems that the Elf suggests that the technique of making hithlain rope is different than the making of ordinary hemp rope. The Elves are willing to share the 'secrets' of this technology or craft with their friends - especially with eager students. Is the rope 'magical'? Or is it just high-tech?

[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: Lostgaeriel ]

[Lostgaeriel]

Pardon me - I'm having difficulty getting this entire reply posted - even editing/adding bit by bit isn't working now, so I'm continuing with a second post.

As for Galadriel making the rope, I think everyone is remembering Sam's comment in The Taming of Sméagol:

'It goes hard parting with anything I brought out of the Elf-country. Made by Galadriel herself, too, maybe. Galadriel,' he murmured, nodding his head mournfully. He looked up and gave one last pull to the rope as if in farewell.
To the complete surprise of both the hobbits it came loose.
...
'but I think the rope came off itself - when I called.'

By calling Galadriel's name, did Sam 'activate' the 'magic' in the rope? Note how Frodo tries to find more logical explanations. Maybe the knot held as long as there was sufficient tension on the rope. Once they were down, the silky rope relaxed and recovered, loosening the knot. Rope with memory. A great bit of technology. Or subtle magic.

[Arwen Imladris]

Sorry, I don't have the books on me right now, but you know when Galadriel is showing her mirror to Sam and Frodo? She says something like "This is what you might call magic" to Sam.

If we were to time travell a couple of hundred years ago with our technologie, the people then would have likely considered it "magic".

Magic is somewhat of a relative term, the elves had a special art to make the rope, but wether or not it was "magic" or not is debatable. (that would be the reason we are discussing it) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Kalimac]

Arwen has it, I think [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. Odd though it is to think of the Elves being "technologically advanced", since for us they seem to speak more of the good old days than anything else, it was still probably the case in this instance. The rope was magical to Sam in the same way that a bottle of penicillin would be a miraculous (or possibly witchcraft-inspired) cure if you took it back to the time of the Great Plague. It's all about perspective [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img].

[Lostgaeriel]

But it is interesting that though Sam has the background in rope-making, it is he who believes that the rope is magical, not Frodo. Ordinarily one would expect that someone who is 'expert' in a craft or technology would be best able to understand an advance in the craft and so dismiss 'magic' as an explanation. But perhaps because Sam is an 'expert' in ropes, he can more easily see that this is no ordinary rope. Whereas to Frodo a rope is a rope is a rope.

[Arwen Imladris]

Sam is an 'expert' in ropes,

I don't believe that 'expert' is quite the right word.

knowing a bit about rope-making: it's in the family as you might say.'

He knows a bit about rope-making, but I suspect that compared to the elves he is definatly no expert.

[TolkienGurl]

Sam, being just a little Hobbit who has never met Elves before, probably calls the Elven-ropes "magic" because he doesn't know how else to describe them. I don't think they were enchanted, or anything. It was probably just that "Elvish goodness" that is in all things made by Elves. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Lostgaeriel]

As Arwen Imladris says,

I don't believe that 'expert' is quite the right word.

- that's why I used quotes around the word 'expert'!

He knows a bit about rope-making, but I suspect that compared to the elves he is definatly no expert.

What I meant was that Sam is apparently (or professes to be) more knowledgeable than is Frodo when it comes to ropes.

That's why I think it's interesting that Sam believes that the rope is magical, while Frodo does not. I would have expected their opinions to be reversed. (Not accounting for Sam's - well - naïveté. And I suppose by this point, Frodo's world-weariness.)

Sam must be seeing some minute details in the construction and material of the Elvish rope that to the untrained eye is unnoticeable. And although the Elves assured him that they could have taught him how to make this hithlum rope - which indicates only a higher level of craft rather than magic - he continues to believe that these differences should be ascribed to magic. Is the friendly debate between Sam and Frodo a metaphor the (sometimes) debate between religious faith and scientific method?

[Kalimac]

Good point, Lostgaerial, but to be honest I'd have expected the opposite. Since Sam knows the ropes better than Frodo in this case (sorry, that one was just waiting to be made [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ) he would understand better than Frodo when something wasn't as it should be. And remember that part of their little conversation is about the rope, and part is about the knot - Frodo says something along the lines of "To think I trusted my weight to your knot!" whereat Sam gets offended and insists that he knows ropes and knots and couldn't possibly have tied a bad knot.

To be honest, this makes sense to me. Frodo (like me) knows pretty much nothing about knots, to him one knot is pretty much like another. If one of them unravels, he concludes, naturally enough given his experience, that the knot was badly or too loosely tied (Frodo may only know how to tie one or two kinds of knots, after all, and that's all that has ever gone wrong with them, so why not in this case). Sam, though, is an expert; he tied the knot and presumably did so thoroughly and complexly enough that there's no way it could have just randomly unraveled unless a very weird and unlikely series of coincidences took place; especially since good knots are presumably double and triple-reinforced against breaking/unraveling (so if portion A breaks down, portion B will still hold firm, the way parachutes have emergency cords, just in case). So for Sam's knot to have unraveled by chance, A, B, C and maybe even E and F would have had to happen in order, and he knows that it's pretty darned unlikely, which is why he concludes that it was magic - or whatever you'd like to call it [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img].

Frodo isn't really in a position to appreciate the magical quality of the event, since he didn't know how unlikely it was in the first place.

[ColletteTook]

Well, yes, Sam could have been an expert Roper, and it WAS in the family, for his great-grandfather was Hob Gammidge "the Roper" and many of the men thereafter were ropers. Mayhaps that is what Sam meant about it being in the family.

[midgetman]

You guys are all so wrong!!! The rope coming "At Sam's call" was a hint that Smeagol was close by. Tolkien did not like to promote "magic" in his books. Indeed there where many passages that indicate that. One was even uttered by Galadriel. I have studdied these matters and it was gollum who undid the rope. It obviously did not "come at Sam's call" and did not have a bad knot. If you doubt sam's rope skills you can take that up with me!! You may say "why did Gollum not know they where down there? THe answer is he got the rope but did not know how long it was there or who placed it there. He proboably too the rope and dropped it. Shunning the elvish feel to it. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Hope that was an eye opener

[dragoneyes]

How would he not know they were down there? He was following them! Why would he want a rope? He doesn't seem to want things like this later on. And ,if my memory serves, he has no fear of the rope before he is tied up in it, and if your theory is true, he would already know that it was made by elves. Taking into accout Sam's knot-tying skills, Gollum would have to have untied that knot at lightning speed if he could untie the knot before he realised it hurt his hands to touch it. Lastly, if Tolkien didn't want us to think it was magic, why did he not explain that it was gollum who undid the rope?
There we are! That's what 10 years of English lessons does to you! (To be more precise 1 year of persuasive writing English lessons)

The rope is magic - in the same way the elvish coats are magic, the boats are magic and Miruvor is magic. It's made by the elves and has properties that no human-, hobbit- or dwarven-made things would ever have. The rope is light, yet can carry extreme weights. Rolled up it needs nearly no space. And it is more alive than other things. It feels that it is still needed and therefore comes down.

@Midgetsman: Your choice of words offends me and hurts your credibilty. And your explanation has two big flaws:
1) Why would Smeagol untie the rope? As someone said, it would hurt his hands because it's elvish and Smeagol can't stand anything elvish, and it would alert the hobbits of his presence. Not to mention that it would help the hobbits if they came to another cliff, and he wouldn't want that.
2) Smeagol is not that close behind. He reaches the cliff a few hours after Frodo and Sam have arrived at the lower end. Proof? If he had arrived earlier and seen the rope (and them too probably) he would have known that they were just at the bottom of the cliff and had been more careful, not whispering and being more aware of a possible attack.

[doug*platypus]

It's just a matter of terminology, really. I'm sure that a hobbit, or more likely a man of Rohan, could call the rope magic, and that would be right from their point of view. The hithlain rope certainly has properties or powers that cannot be easily explained or understood, and would seem strange to foreigners. The elves of Lórien would not have called the rope magic, even those who had no idea about ropemaking. A hithlain rope glowed in the dark, was light yet strong, came loose on command and packed down remarkably well. That's just how it was.

Many cultural items in our own world are in the same position. Crystals and other stones are worn by many people in the belief that they hold certain properties. The Chinese science of Feng Shui is used to control the properties and balance of a space. Many Christians wear a medallion of a chosen Saint. None of which is called magic.

[yavanna II]

ok. Even if I really hate our physics class, I think that the rope had only had enough tension for Frodo & Sam's weights together... there's no magic in it, just PHYSICS...

ps
i dont tynk tolkien's world is with PHYSICS though..... [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

I think that the rope had only had enough tension for Frodo & Sam's weights together

What do you mean, tension enough? Are you referring to the earlier idea of the knot getting loose when there's no tension on it?

[Maéglin]

I really think its just Elvish lore, technology, craft or whatever. I mean what would happen if you had tried explaining electricity to a cave man or even a man in the medieval ages. He would think you a god or a wizard. So yes as Kalimac said, its a matter of perspective. Ever hear anyone say (or I hope you have) "Its magic" after you asked them how they did something. Its the same principle [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[mark12_30]

Regarding the cloaks:

"Are these magic cloaks?" asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.

"I do not know what you mean by that," answered the leader of the Elves. "They are fair garments, and the web is good, for it was made in this land. They are elvish robes certainly, if that is what you mean. Leaf and branch, water and stone: they have the hue and beauty of all these things under the twilight of Lorien that we love; for we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make. Yet they are garments, not armor, and they will not turn shaft or blade. But they should serve you well; they are light to wear, and are warm enough or cool enough at need. And you will find them a great aid in keeping out of sight of unfriendly eyes, whether you walk among the stones or among the trees..."

Regarding the ropes:

They are made of hithlain... had we known that this craft delighted you, we could have taught you much."

From Letter 131:

(the elves') magic is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of creation.

If the word "magic" is used in the sense of having Power, then no, the rope is not magic, because elves are not into power-magic. But if the word magic is used in the sense of harmony with nature and perfection of artistic expression, then yes, the rope is artistic, in harmony with Lorien which the elves love, and it works with nature.

Everything that the rope "does" (shimmers in the darkness, for instance) can be attributed to its artistic perfection and inherent qualities, except for that one thing: that the rope "came, when I called." Called who or what? So far no one has brought up the possibility that Galadriel was involved in that, or even Gandalf or Arwen or another skilled in Osanwe, or even that it was some other kind of divine intervention.

Look at the sequence:

He stroked the rope's end, and shook it gently. "It goes hard parting with anything I brought out of the Elf-country. Made by Galadriel herself, too, maybe. Galadriel, " he murmured, nodding his head mournfully. He looked up and gave one last pull to the rope as if in farewell.

...

"Have it your own way, Mr. Frodo," he said at last, "but I think the rope came off itself-- when I called."

Called the rope? Or called Galadriel? Tolkien doesn't clarify. But on the one hand, it does not seem past the art of the elves to create such a rope. And on the other hand, it does not seem past reasoning to me that Galadriel (or some other far-seeing mind-- Celeborn, Elrond, Arwen, Gandalf, whoever) would have been watching over Sam and Frodo, using osanwe, and when Sam called Galadriel's name, asking for divine intervention.

For instance, in the end, it is probably Manwe who sends the eagles at Gandalf's request. (Olorin, Gandalf, had been attatched to Manwe; Letter 200. Also see Unfinished Tales p. 55 regarding the Eagles.)

Iluvatar, and the Valar, are obviously watching.

(Edit [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Lostgaeriel, how did I miss that you already had half these quotes posted?? I could have done half the typing. Drat. Uh, to summarize half of the above: See Lostgaeriel's post. "What she said."

(Lostgaeriel -> she? I'm guessing, no offense...?)

[ October 29, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[lindil]

Mark 12_30, I read through this entire thread waiting to see if someone would post the first quote you supplied - thanks!

It really is THE answer to the original question.

It does not however answer whether the rope came off at Sam's call or not [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

Who or what is Osanwe?

[mark12_30]

I'm guessing lindil won't be able to resist that question... lindil? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]