Who else could have aided Gondor? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

metropolis_part_one · 01-06-2004, 04:37 AM

In 'The Council of Elrond' Boromir laments that "Only from Rohan now will any men ride to [Gondor] when we call". This perplexes me, as who else could possibly ride to their call? The Easterlings and Southrons are in league with Mordor, so what other kingdoms of men exist in Middle Earth? Surely the small collection of villages around Bree to the north do not constitute any kind of military power. So what "men" have been ignoring Gondor's call? There are the men of the Dale, but I wasn't aware that this was any kind of a 'kingdom', just a small settlement in the wild. And surely they don't ask for aid from the wildmen?
If Boromir doesn't only mean men, then what does he mean? He doesn't seem to know much if anything about Rivendell or the Elves.

nobody · 01-06-2004, 04:54 AM

Perhaps he meant that Arnor couldn't help because it had fallen long ago?

Rider of Rohan · 01-06-2004, 11:10 AM

Boromir might have been trying to stick it to everyone there. "Only Rohan will come to our aid you lazy bumpkins", or something like that. He could be thinking of the various tribes and towns in Dale and Rhovanion. They have come to Gondor in the past (they are where the Rohirrim come from). Other than that I don't know.

**lindil** · 01-06-2004, 12:43 PM

First off, Boromir, like Denethor viewed Gondor not only as the primary 'physical' resisitance to Sauron [though Rohan possibly had a more effective [if not larger fighting force], but also as the center of civilization. If one does not know about Lothlorien, this is probably rather uncontestable, but still myopic.

What help he may have hoped for is unclear, maybe on his trip to Rivendell, he began to get some inkiling of the remaining Northern Dunedain, and felt they should be more active instead of lurking in the wild. Aragorn it seems is essentially answering this implicit charge.

Also I think even though we do not hear towns spelled out, it is clear that there were far more Northmen/Woodmen/BEornings spread up and down the Vale of Anduin and in the East Bight of Mirkwood [that is a pretty massive chunk of missing forest anyhow!] and that though the level of organization was probably rather low, Gondor perhaps hoped something of a minor repeat of Riders from the North could happen again.

All rank speculation of course, we do not know how far Gondor had cast abroad for formal requests of help. Denethor seemed overly focused on what he could see with the Palantir, as opposed to what kind of alliances he could build with any Northern Woodmen.

Gurthang · 01-06-2004, 02:17 PM

Quote:

"Only from Rohan now will any men ride to [Gondor] when we call"

He's seems to be saying that the ones that did answer the call before would not now. I don't know of any others Gondor has asked for help other than Arnor and the Rohirrim. In the case of the horse-lords, they came after hearing a general plea for help. Perhaps Denethor had sent out a similar plea, but this time no one came.

The only possible answer could have been from someone in Rohvanion, or the Vale of Anduin. There aren't that many places that men still dwell.

Gil-numen · 01-06-2004, 02:57 PM

The Northmen living east of Anduin also had to deal with easterlings, orcs, spiders, and last but not least, Dol Guldur.
They did not need to go to war; war acme to them.

-----------------------------
"Show it to me"
Thingol to Beren

doug*platypus · 01-06-2004, 03:52 PM

Mablung and Damrod have similar gripes about the Southrons. They point out that at least part of Near Harad used to be loyal to Gondor, and they seem very peeved that all of the south and the east was now allied with Sauron.

I think Boromir's comment was largely out of frustration. He knew full well that there were many other inhabitants of Middle-Earth, Men, Elves and Dwarves at least, and was under the false impression that only Gondor and Rohan were fighting the Enemy. He and Denethor, and possible even Faramir (who is criticised by Sam for not letting others do their part in the war) knew nothing of the dangers that those behind them were in.

The Stewards of Gondor thought that they fought alone, and probably held to blame places such as Dale, Esgaroth, Bree, Rivendell and the Elves in general. Dunland could have been a possible ally as well, except they were dispossessed and alienated by Rohan and Gondor.

Orophin · 04-27-2004, 04:24 PM

I think that Boromir knows that Gondor's strength is slowly leaving them. I also think that he knows that the only ally that they have had a kept from the begining is Rohan. Through everything thay have been there for each other and they cannot expect that from anyone else so I think that he has an interesting point. Although there are lots of people in middle earth the only one's that have always been there are the Rohirrim so he trusts them.

gorthaur_cruel · 05-08-2004, 10:31 AM

Boromir never said "Gondor". His exact words were

Quote:

But still we fight on, holding all the west shores of Anduin; and those who shelter behind us give us praise, if ever they hear our name: much praise but little help. Only from Rohan now will any men ride to us when we call.

I believe by "us", he doesn't mean Gondor, but rather the fighting force of Minas Tirith. He also mentions "much praise but little help". Little help can be taken to mean "no help", or not a lot of help. We find out later that Lossarnach, Ringlo Vale, Morthond, Anfalas, Lamedon, Ethir, Pinnaeth Gelin, and Dol Amroth come to Gondor's help, but their forces were "always too few, always less than hope looked for or need asked". Thus, I think he's referring to those "Outlands" of Gondor. He does say "those who shelter behind us", and if Boromir's talking about the fighting force of Minas Tirith, that makes perfect sense.

Knight_of_Dol Amroth · 05-27-2012, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gorthaur_cruel

Boromir never said "Gondor". His exact words were

I believe by "us", he doesn't mean Gondor, but rather the fighting force of Minas Tirith. He also mentions "much praise but little help". Little help can be taken to mean "no help", or not a lot of help. We find out later that Lossarnach, Ringlo Vale, Morthond, Anfalas, Lamedon, Ethir, Pinnaeth Gelin, and Dol Amroth come to Gondor's help, but their forces were "always too few, always less than hope looked for or need asked". Thus, I think he's referring to those "Outlands" of Gondor. He does say "those who shelter behind us", and if Boromir's talking about the fighting force of Minas Tirith, that makes perfect sense.

All of those places are parts of gondor so they would be obligated to at least send help to the front lines. Unlike Rohan or the rangers of the north or any of the people that helped in the war that didn't really have to.

The Mouth of Sauron · 06-04-2012, 10:42 AM

In addition to the men in the Vale of Anduin, Woodmen of Mirkwood and the men of Dale (which was a sizeable realm at the time of the War of the Ring), what about the men of Dorwinion ?

01-06-2004, 04:37 AM	#1
metropolis_part_one Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 25	Who else could have aided Gondor? In 'The Council of Elrond' Boromir laments that "Only from Rohan now will any men ride to [Gondor] when we call". This perplexes me, as who else could possibly ride to their call? The Easterlings and Southrons are in league with Mordor, so what other kingdoms of men exist in Middle Earth? Surely the small collection of villages around Bree to the north do not constitute any kind of military power. So what "men" have been ignoring Gondor's call? There are the men of the Dale, but I wasn't aware that this was any kind of a 'kingdom', just a small settlement in the wild. And surely they don't ask for aid from the wildmen? If Boromir doesn't only mean men, then what does he mean? He doesn't seem to know much if anything about Rivendell or the Elves. __________________ For forty days and forty nights They rode through red blood to the knee And they saw neither sun nor moon But heard the roaring of the sea

01-06-2004, 04:54 AM	#2
nobody Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Utumno Posts: 64	Perhaps he meant that Arnor couldn't help because it had fallen long ago? __________________ I am evil

01-06-2004, 12:43 PM	#4
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	First off, Boromir, like Denethor viewed Gondor not only as the primary 'physical' resisitance to Sauron [though Rohan possibly had a more effective [if not larger fighting force], but also as the center of civilization. If one does not know about Lothlorien, this is probably rather uncontestable, but still myopic. What help he may have hoped for is unclear, maybe on his trip to Rivendell, he began to get some inkiling of the remaining Northern Dunedain, and felt they should be more active instead of lurking in the wild. Aragorn it seems is essentially answering this implicit charge. Also I think even though we do not hear towns spelled out, it is clear that there were far more Northmen/Woodmen/BEornings spread up and down the Vale of Anduin and in the East Bight of Mirkwood [that is a pretty massive chunk of missing forest anyhow!] and that though the level of organization was probably rather low, Gondor perhaps hoped something of a minor repeat of Riders from the North could happen again. All rank speculation of course, we do not know how far Gondor had cast abroad for formal requests of help. Denethor seemed overly focused on what he could see with the Palantir, as opposed to what kind of alliances he could build with any Northern Woodmen. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

01-06-2004, 03:52 PM	#7
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	Mablung and Damrod have similar gripes about the Southrons. They point out that at least part of Near Harad used to be loyal to Gondor, and they seem very peeved that all of the south and the east was now allied with Sauron. I think Boromir's comment was largely out of frustration. He knew full well that there were many other inhabitants of Middle-Earth, Men, Elves and Dwarves at least, and was under the false impression that only Gondor and Rohan were fighting the Enemy. He and Denethor, and possible even Faramir (who is criticised by Sam for not letting others do their part in the war) knew nothing of the dangers that those behind them were in. The Stewards of Gondor thought that they fought alone, and probably held to blame places such as Dale, Esgaroth, Bree, Rivendell and the Elves in general. Dunland could have been a possible ally as well, except they were dispossessed and alienated by Rohan and Gondor. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

04-27-2004, 04:24 PM	#8
Orophin Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Lothlorien Posts: 48	What does he mean? I think that Boromir knows that Gondor's strength is slowly leaving them. I also think that he knows that the only ally that they have had a kept from the begining is Rohan. Through everything thay have been there for each other and they cannot expect that from anyone else so I think that he has an interesting point. Although there are lots of people in middle earth the only one's that have always been there are the Rohirrim so he trusts them. __________________ Yrch! Last edited by Orophin; 05-08-2004 at 10:45 AM.

01-06-2004, 11:10 AM	#3
Rider of Rohan Pile O'Bones Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: IWU Posts: 14	Boromir might have been trying to stick it to everyone there. "Only Rohan will come to our aid you lazy bumpkins", or something like that. He could be thinking of the various tribes and towns in Dale and Rhovanion. They have come to Gondor in the past (they are where the Rohirrim come from). Other than that I don't know.

01-06-2004, 02:57 PM	#6
Gil-numen Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Cuivienen...hanging out with the fading Elves Posts: 36	The Northmen living east of Anduin also had to deal with easterlings, orcs, spiders, and last but not least, Dol Guldur. They did not need to go to war; war acme to them. ----------------------------- "Show it to me" Thingol to Beren

06-04-2012, 10:42 AM	#11
The Mouth of Sauron Wight Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Barad-Dur Posts: 196	In addition to the men in the Vale of Anduin, Woodmen of Mirkwood and the men of Dale (which was a sizeable realm at the time of the War of the Ring), what about the men of Dorwinion ?