Why was Boromir allowed to join the Fellowship?

[TheLostPilgrim]

Boromir had made it kind of, well, obvious at the Council that he did not see harm in using The Ring? Even if he was somewhat quelled by Elrond, his first thought was to use the Ring for strength and as a weapon, and he even said he saw some wisdom in Saruman's desire of it.

Knowing as they did the Ring's corruptive power, why then did Gandalf and Elrond allow Boromir to join the Fellowship? Surely they could've seen his weakness and his lack of true understanding--That this man was a soldier, a leader of men, a brave warrior and nothing more--Not one of the Wise or who truly understood how dangerous or evil the Ring was? An overly proud and perhaps desperate man who would desire of the Ring to save his land?

Did neither of them foresee the possibility of him becoming a threat, since he did not truly understand the peril of the Ring and even before setting out already had desire to use it, if only for a noble purpose?

[Inziladun]

Boromir's words at the Council could have been taken at face value to have come of simple ignorance of the Ring's corrupting influence, and a product of the state of the man's life, as you describe. Since he did apparently accept Elrond's explanation of why the Ring had to be destroyed, maybe they thought that was sufficient. Note too that it wasn't until Gandalf's fall that Boromir began to show further outward signs that he was still having thoughts of using it.

Also, Boromir had made the journey to Rivendell alone, and it was really miraculous that he made it. Since the Fellowship intended to travel back towards the general direction of Minas Tirith, and Boromir was obviously going to head there himself, it would have been a dishonor toward him to have not included him. And slighting the son of the Steward of Gondor when a war with Sauron was brewing was something to be avoided.

[Formendacil]

In addition of any matter of slighting Boromir--I can take or leave that, since I can see Boromir being more than okay with going home his own way (Gap of Rohan, etc.)--there's also the fact that Aragorn is headed for Minas Tirith. It's worth remembering that his goal is not to go with Frodo to Mt. Doom, but to Gondor. Quite apart from any miracles in getting to Rivendell, Boromir's arrival is a godsend for Aragorn (and Gandalf and Elrond and anyone else behind the scenes) because their journey together gives Aragorn the chance to make Denethor's son and heir an ally before he ever arrives in Minas Tirith with his groundshaking claim. Quite unfortunately, that's not exactly how things played out.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

In addition of any matter of slighting Boromir--I can take or leave that, since I can see Boromir being more than okay with going home his own way (Gap of Rohan, etc.)--there's also the fact that Aragorn is headed for Minas Tirith.

I was thinking more of Denethor's reaction if Boromir had indeed returned to tell how no one would accompany him on his journey back. That wouldn't have done much to elevate Denethor's considerations of other potential allies in the West.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

It's worth remembering that his goal is not to go with Frodo to Mt. Doom, but to Gondor. Quite apart from any miracles in getting to Rivendell, Boromir's arrival is a godsend for Aragorn (and Gandalf and Elrond and anyone else behind the scenes) because their journey together gives Aragorn the chance to make Denethor's son and heir an ally before he ever arrives in Minas Tirith with his groundshaking claim. Quite unfortunately, that's not exactly how things played out.

True indeed. It makes me wonder which way Legolas and Gimli would have chosen if Gandalf had not apparently died, but that's another thread.

[Galadriel55]

This kind of makes me wonder about why they chose people for the Quest who were not going for the Quest - if you're heading to Minas Tirith and the Quest is headed to Mordor, that creates a bit of a problem. And it did too at Parth Galen. Were Elrond and co. so confident of Minas Tirith's stand or of the Quest's route, or maybe they just could not plan that far ahead, so regardless of the crew they knew it would have to improvise beyond a certain point?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

This kind of makes me wonder about why they chose people for the Quest who were not going for the Quest - if you're heading to Minas Tirith and the Quest is headed to Mordor, that creates a bit of a problem.

Technically, none of the Fellowship were bound to the Quest except Frodo. As Elrond said, "on him alone is any charge laid". The others were free to leave at any time and go where they liked. You would think that might be a bit of a security risk, but then again they had Gandalf, Aragorn, and Frodo's kinfolk and dearest friends in the group along with Boromir. The real "outsiders" as I see it were Legolas and Gimli, who were with each step southward going away from their homes, and had no real ties to the Company other than their own senses of loyalty and friendship. In the views of Elrond and Gandalf, that was apparently enough.

[Boromir88]

I'm finding this thread way too late and so many things to comment on. Oi! Where to star? Some of this has already been discussed and answered in the thread, but I'm just running down the list of stuff in my head and that way have it all in one post.

1. Why was the eldest son of the steward sent to Rivendell to get answers to a dream-riddle?

I think it's more telling of Boromir's character, in feeling the need to go on this quest to Rivendell and for answers than it is of Denethor. In a cast barb Faramir reminds Denethor that it was he who permitted Boromir to leave. But, as Calacirya excellently pointed out, Boromir was a hard person to say no to, or overrule, when he had his mind set on something. Boromir's own words at the Council were Faramir wanted to go, but Boromir took it upon himself to go and would not have it any other way:

"Therefor my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself. Loth was my father to give me leave, and long have I wandered by roads forgotten, seeking the house of Elrond, of which many had heard, but few knew where it lay."~The Council of Elrond

Denethor resisted for a while, but in a less sophisticated way of putting it, I imagine a child whining for that toy to their parent so much the parent finally caves in just to get the kid to shut up. And indeed, as the commander of Gondor's armies, Boromir is the one used to giving orders and having them followed. We see this through the entire quest, when the company is agianst Boromir's opinion of the path, he's rather obstinate and bullish "I will not go unless the whole company is against me."

2. Why did Boromir want to seek out Elrond and Rivendell in the first place?

Again using Boromir's words:

In this evil hour I have come on an errand over many dangerous leagues to Elrond: a hundred and ten days I have journeyed all alone. But I do not seek allies in war. The might of Elrond is in wisdom not in war. For it is said. I come to ask for counsel and the unravelling of hard words. For on the eve of the sudden assault a dream came to my brother in a troubled sleep; and afterwards a like dream came of to him again, and once to me.~ibid

I don't think there's a reason to doubt Boromir's words here. He's travelled 110 days alone already and wouldn't mind going back alone either. He didn't leave for Rivendell to get allies, but for counsel and words of wisdom. Now he is rather candid later that while he didn't come seeking help, they do need it and in Boromir's perspective help comes in the forms of weapons and soldiers.

As he travels with the Fellowship, I think he would have been wounded had no one gone to Minas Tirith with him, because he came to view them as friends. And since his City is hard-pressed in being threatened by war, he would have welcomed to have them as allies. But that's due to the situation changing from the reasons he originally was seeking Imladris.

3. Why was Boromir permitted to join the Fellowship in the first place?

The simplest reason is the Fellowship was in dire need of strength. Time and time again, we see they are in need of Boromir's strength, and he was right in saying after leaving Lorien they would need his strength to get to the Tindrock.

While Boromir does reveal the idea of using the Ring as a weapon at the Council, I agree with those who said Elrond and Gandalf probably chalked it up to ignorance. It didn't occur as Jackson's movies, where Frodo sets the Ring in the center of everyone and Boromir creepily reaches out for it as he goes on a almost immediately possessed speech to use it.

They talk about the Ring for a bit, Boromir opines "Well doesn't Saruman have a point here in using the weapon of the enemy against him?" The various others say no, no, no, it should be destroyed. It should be remembered that using the Ring as a weapon was also something Tolkien said the bearers of the 3 contemplated (Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel) they all concluded it was a bad idea, but simply because Boromir brought up the possibility of using the Ring against Sauron, wouldn't have set off any alarms in Gandalf or Elrond, who we know also contemplated doing the same.

I believe their fears were more on the bearer of the Ring, as the bearer of the Ring would be more dangerous and under constant pressure to use the Ring of Power against Sauron. In the hands of Frodo, if he challenged Sauron, Frodo would have been utterly destroyed and Sauron has the Ring back (but they correctly judged Frodo would be the most resistant to use the Ring for those purposes). If Gandalf possessed the Ring and challenged Sauron, he might have overthrown Sauron, but the Ring would change him into basically another Sauron. But it's not like the Ring sent out this all-corrupting sphere of influence around the Ring-bearer.

Boromir only saw victory through weapons and strength of arms. As he became more desperate to save his City he perceived the Ring as that weapon. Frodo could have been bearing the Ring of Power and applie pies, if Boromir thought apple pies were Sauron's bane he would have tried to use them instead of some silly gold trinket. Boromir's thoughts to use the Ring were at the time, no more than what Gandalf and Elrond had considered as well. The real dangers was in choosing the wrong Ring-bearer, not in choosing the Ring-bearers companions.

I'm out of time, but hopefully more later to discuss on the necessary dynamics Boromir added...and some on Denethor and Gimli.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

3. Why was Boromir permitted to join the Fellowship in the first place?

The simplest reason is the Fellowship was in dire need of strength. Time and time again, we see they are in need of Boromir's strength, and he was right in saying after leaving Lorien they would need his strength to get to the Tindrock.

While Boromir does reveal the idea of using the Ring as a weapon at the Council, I agree with those who said Elrond and Gandalf probably chalked it up to ignorance.

I agree with this argument the most. I think we should be cautious about attributing too much of a political angle to the decision to include Boromir in the Fellowship. He was an experienced soldier of great strength and hardihood who was going in the same direction as them anyway, yet would not attract attention the way a mighty Elf-Lord like Glorfindel would. He had also received the prophetic dream telling him to seek Rivendell, and I get the impression that in their dire state Elrond and Gandalf were willing to seek guidance from "fate" wherever possible. That being said, it seems that Faramir was "meant" to go, given that he experienced the dream first and on more than one occasion.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I agree with this argument the most. I think we should be cautious about attributing too much of a political angle to the decision to include Boromir in the Fellowship.

Yes, because whether Boromir was in the Fellowship or went back by himself, knowledge of Aragorn and his claim would have reached Denethor, and no amount of politicking from Elrond and Gandalf were going to make Denethor accept Aragorn's right. They might not have known Denethor would be so obstinate and it does help Aragorn to be able to travel with, and make a friend in Boromir, but I would call that more of a useful side effect and not the reason for his inclusion.

For as Faramir tells Frodo:

"It does," said Frodo. "Yet always he treated Aragorn with honor."
"I doubt it not," said Faramir. "If he were satisfied with Aragorn's claim, as you say, he would greatly reverence him. But the pinch had not yet come. They had not yet reached Minas Tirith or become rivals in war."~The Window on the West

I think Faramir is correct in his assessment. Yes, it would only benefit Aragorn to make friends with Boromir (and it's not surprising Boromir would treat Aragorn with honor) but "the pinch" had not (and never did) come.

Nothing would have made Denethor relent. Not even Boromir coming to town fully embracing Aragorn. Denethor's love for Boromir was solely based on the unyielding belief Boromir was loyal to him, he was not a "wizard's pupil." Boromir would have returned to Minas Tirith with a "mighty gift", and Denethor had serious trust issues, even with allies:

Thus pride increased in Denethor together with despair, until he saw in all the deeds of that time only a single combat between the Lord of the White Tower and the Lord of the Barad-dur, and mistrusted all others who resisted Sauron, unless they served himself alone.~ Appendix A: Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion, The Stewards

Well before this, even with the steward Ecthelion (Denethor's dad), Denethor was not very welcoming towards Gandalf. Ecthelion favored "Thorongil" and Denethor came to suspect Thorongil was really Isildur's heir and Gandalf plotted to use Thorongil to supplant him. Whether Boromir was in the Fellowship or not, Denethor would have kept his attention on Gandalf and Thorongil. I'll try to track down the reference in Unfinished Tales: The Palantir, but it talks of Denethor first viewing the stone after his wife died, because he was concerned about the future of his line and Stewardship.

Elrond and Gandalf might not have known all this, but I can't see any major political reason to include Boromir, other than a side effect of by travelling with Aragorn, it could only potentially help Aragorn's claim.

That being said, it seems that Faramir was "meant" to go, given that he experienced the dream first and on more than one occasion.

I agree, but we shouldn't forget that with Boromir receiving a prophetic dream and deciding he should be the one to go, his timely arrival suggests he was "meant" to be there. As Elrond tells the Council "Boromir came to us in the early morning hours"...

This is just supposition, but it's always sounded like after being rather lost, Boromir finally stumbled upon Rivendell, and that he wasn't "brought" there by someone in Elrond's house who found him lost in the area. And in this way, it would appear he was worthy and meant to be in Rivendell on that specific date where "counsels" would be taken.

[Juicy-Sweet]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I don't think there's a reason to doubt Boromir's words here. He's travelled 110 days alone already and wouldn't mind going back alone either. He didn't leave for Rivendell to get allies, but for counsel and words of wisdom. Now he is rather candid later that while he didn't come seeking help, they do need it and in Boromir's perspective help comes in the forms of weapons and soldiers.

...

Boromir only saw victory through weapons and strength of arms. As he became more desperate to save his City he perceived the Ring as that weapon. Frodo could have been bearing the Ring of Power and applie pies, if Boromir thought apple pies were Sauron's bane he would have tried to use them instead of some silly gold trinket. Boromir's thoughts to use the Ring were at the time, no more than what Gandalf and Elrond had considered as well. The real dangers was in choosing the wrong Ring-bearer, not in choosing the Ring-bearers companions.

I'm out of time, but hopefully more later to discuss on the necessary dynamics Boromir added...and some on Denethor and Gimli.

Hmm yes and no. Your post made me think about the enormity of Boromir leaving Gondor because of a dream.

They are pressed militarly, in great danger, and he is their greatest warrior and (in his and Denethor's mind) their greatest leader - in the middle of all this, where he is BADLY needed, he suddenly treks off to check up on what his brothers dream might be about...

Seek for the Sword that was broken:
In Imladris it dwells;
There shall be counsels taken
Stronger than Morgul-spells.
There shall be shown a token
That Doom is near at hand,
For Isildur's Bane shall waken,
And the Halfling forth shall stand


There's not much in those words that would make it so-so important to know the answer. No need to go to Rivendell to find out that "Doom was near at hand", they were all perfectly well aware of that.

So Boromir must have had a spritual side as well, I think some sort of vague notion/feeling that there was some sort of magical something at Rivendell, meaning not "weapons and soldiers" that could help them.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Juicy-Sweet

There's not much in those words that would make it so-so important to know the answer. No need to go to Rivendell to find out that "Doom was near at hand", they were all perfectly well aware of that.

The fact that both Faramir and Boromir had the same dream, coupled with the knowledge of the name of Elrond the higher-blood Gondorians would still have had, persuaded the rather insular Denethor to send one of his sons on a "secret" mission to have the dream decoded.

Originally Posted by Juicy-Sweet

So Boromir must have had a spritual side as well, I think some sort of vague notion/feeling that there was some sort of magical something at Rivendell, meaning not "weapons and soldiers" that could help them.

Not so much spiritual as a bossy big brother, unwilling to let his sibling take a long, hazardous journey like that.

[radagastly]

Considering his position as the "greatest" knight of Gondor and all, I suspect Boromir was also itching for a "noble quest" to test his skills and resolve, and was unwilling to begrudge the opportunity to his little brother. So he left Gondor to answer the riddle of this mystic dream.

As for why Boromir was included in the Fellowship, the reasons above sum it up nicely. Very likely, both Elrond and Gandalf had a feeling or sense that Boromir's participation would provide some kind of key turning point at some stage of the journey. Galadriel obviously did. How that would change the course of the quest, they would not have known, and perhaps only guessed. They would have seen it as important that it play out, at any rate, "For good or ill."