Could Eru change the very laws of nature if he wanted to? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

PaigeStormblood · 06-30-2013, 03:27 AM

Hey guys curious question regarding Eru. Since he is the creator of all there is and ever will be does he even have a limit to what he could potentially do if he willed it? I.e could he even change the very laws of nature and physics if he felt the need to do so seeing as he is the creator or are there something's even the Almighty can't have power over?

Mithalwen · 06-30-2013, 05:15 AM

I suppose at a basic level the answer has to be yes since an omnipotent creato has to be omnipotent however I don't know if he coukd change thee rules in something already created without destroying it is another thiing.though ... depends a bit on the changes.... like it is easy to dye whit cloth another colour but to change a dark colour light tou have to bleach it at potentiall damage the structure..

There was some discussion, I think on a thread started years ago on Music and magic, that suggested that because music was the essence of Arda's creation it could be used to create changes in Arda ~ magic effectively. I'd need to look it up but things like Felagund's song against Sauron, Galadriel singing of leaves of gold..but that is bending not breaking the rules maybe

radagastly · 06-30-2013, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by Mithalwen:

Quote:

I suppose at a basic level the answer has to be yes since an omnipotent creato has to be omnipotent however I don't know if he coukd change thee rules in something already created without destroying it is another thiing.though ... depends a bit on the changes.... like it is easy to dye whit cloth another colour but to change a dark colour light tou have to bleach it at potentiall damage the structure..

I can imagine this leading to a discussion on the creation of the Dwarves. One instant, they were objects created by Aule, who had his hammer raised and ready to destroy them in subservience to Eru; the next instant they were living beings with consciousness, cowering in fear from that very hammer. Eru had violated his own natural laws to give them life. One has to wonder if, in that same moment, Eru had taken that life back again, whether the Dwarves would have been destroyed by their loss of life, or if they would have gone back to the mindless automatons that Aule built them as at the start?

Mithalwen · 06-30-2013, 01:07 PM

It also touches on whether creation is conceived of as a single defined action or a continuing organic process...there is a fantastic debate available on you tube between the British Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks and Dr Richard Dawkins. Lord Sacks says that he does't have a problem with evolution since it just means that God is a gardener not a mechanic. If Eru is seen as a gardener then changeas in growth and development is part of the plan. If he is an engineer change necessitates a redesign.

Inziladun · 06-30-2013, 04:40 PM

The Fall of Númenor might be considered a pretty substantial alteration in "natural law". We see an island overturned in response to actions of its inhabitants, and a simultaneous removal from the physical world of an entire "continent" when Valinor was transferred to what amounted to a separate plane of existence or dimension.
Also, there was the exchanging of mortality to the reverse that was apparently done to Tuor, a Man.

Quote:

Originally Posted by radagastly

One has to wonder if, in that same moment, Eru had taken that life back again, whether the Dwarves would have been destroyed by their loss of life, or if they would have gone back to the mindless automatons that Aule built them as at the start?

I would say the latter, since they already "lived" before having the Fire. Being bereft of it should have left them in the same state as previously.

jallanite · 07-01-2013, 07:41 PM

Whether God (Eru) can change the past is one question. Another is whether God is capable of doing evil.

Basically the general religious position is that God in theoretically omnipotent and can do anything he wants to. But there are things that God just doesn’t want to do. Therefore practically God is not omnipotent. God does not break his own rules.

God is limited by his own will.

God may also be limited by logic. He can’t make one plus one equal three. At least theologians in general try to be logical which would be pointless if God does not follow the rules of logic.

06-30-2013, 03:27 AM	#1
PaigeStormblood Newly Deceased Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 8	Could Eru change the very laws of nature if he wanted to? Hey guys curious question regarding Eru. Since he is the creator of all there is and ever will be does he even have a limit to what he could potentially do if he willed it? I.e could he even change the very laws of nature and physics if he felt the need to do so seeing as he is the creator or are there something's even the Almighty can't have power over?

06-30-2013, 05:15 AM	#2
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,449	I suppose at a basic level the answer has to be yes since an omnipotent creato has to be omnipotent however I don't know if he coukd change thee rules in something already created without destroying it is another thiing.though ... depends a bit on the changes.... like it is easy to dye whit cloth another colour but to change a dark colour light tou have to bleach it at potentiall damage the structure.. There was some discussion, I think on a thread started years ago on Music and magic, that suggested that because music was the essence of Arda's creation it could be used to create changes in Arda ~ magic effectively. I'd need to look it up but things like Felagund's song against Sauron, Galadriel singing of leaves of gold..but that is bending not breaking the rules maybe __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

06-30-2013, 01:07 PM	#4
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,449	It also touches on whether creation is conceived of as a single defined action or a continuing organic process...there is a fantastic debate available on you tube between the British Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks and Dr Richard Dawkins. Lord Sacks says that he does't have a problem with evolution since it just means that God is a gardener not a mechanic. If Eru is seen as a gardener then changeas in growth and development is part of the plan. If he is an engineer change necessitates a redesign. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

07-01-2013, 07:41 PM	#6
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	Whether God (Eru) can change the past is one question. Another is whether God is capable of doing evil. Basically the general religious position is that God in theoretically omnipotent and can do anything he wants to. But there are things that God just doesn’t want to do. Therefore practically God is not omnipotent. God does not break his own rules. God is limited by his own will. God may also be limited by logic. He can’t make one plus one equal three. At least theologians in general try to be logical which would be pointless if God does not follow the rules of logic.