Hobbit2 - Chapter 03 - A Short Rest

[Estelyn Telcontar]

There's no adventure in this chapter, though Tolkien does make the search for Rivendell slightly suspenseful. However, the deciphering of the runes and maps lays the groundwork for the success of the quest. This episode also raises one question of major importance: Just what do elves smell like?!

Would you like to have visited Rivendell with the dwarves and Bilbo? What impresses you most, what don't you like about it?



(Here's the previous discussion, for those interested.)

[Galadriel55]

Now it is a strange thing, but things that are good to have and days that are good to spend are soon told about, and not much to listen to; while things that are uncomfortable, palpitating, and even gruesome, may make a good tale, and take a deal of telling anyway.

How true! We wouldn't want a story that goes "In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit, and he lived there happily ever after", do we?

The Elves are a mean bunch! To make fun of tired road-weary travellers! And Bilbo - mind you don't eat all the cakes! (It isn't very nice, but I love that part for its silliness).

The moon-letters seem to be made of ithildin, like the inscription on the Gates of Moria, but much cleverer. The map is made by Thror, but it is not clear whether he made it before or after the capture of the Mountain. Either way, the Dwarves' skills might not have dwindeled as much as we are lead to believe!



As for the upcomming movie, I think this chapter merits a good 10 seconds of it. And PJ will have the above-mentioned passage to justify this.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

This episode also raises one question of major importance: Just what do elves smell like?!

Well, I would have to assume they have a pleasant scent. Because, as everyone knows, the Elves are too noble to fart.

[jallanite]

Tolkien writes:

In those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was their chief.

This is puzzling for any stage of Tolkien’s pseudo-history. Elrond was originally the sole ancestor of such persons rather than just their chief. It does feel like Tolkien conceives this Elrond as one of the descendants of the original Elrond and the chieftain of a household of half-elven folk.

In The Fellowship of the Ring there is only one Elrond who has two sons and a daughter. This Elrond is of course the chief of these four people, including himself, but it seems to me odd to describe these four people as “some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors”, especially as Tolkien has since invented Elrond’s brother Elros who is the ancestor of the royal house of the Númenóreans.

However at this point in Tolkien’s elvish history as he then saw it, the line of chieftains of the descendants of Isildur had fallen into temporary abeyance following the death of Arathorn and the minority of Aragorn who was being fostered by Elrond. Perhaps Elrond had also taken over, during this period, the position of active chieftain of the Rangers of the North until Aragorn came of age.

Or it might be that Bilbo, at that time, is to be imagined as not keeping straight the distinction between the Rangers, who were mostly “some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors”, and the children of Elrond who are also “some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors” and of whom the two sons also served as Rangers.

This chapter is extraordinarily clear and pleasant from the precise description of the land between the ford and Rivendell to the end of the chapter.

The first appearance of elves in perfectly imagined. We never actually see the elves, although Bilbo does, but we hear them and—in one of Tolkien’s points of genius—smell them.

The elvish song is sometimes on the verge of being insulting, but its frivolousness and its clear welcome to the weary travellers should take any edge from the jesting. Thorin is just a sourpuss.

[Formendacil]

Regarding the race of whom Elrond "was the chief," a few statements by Aragorn in Lord of the Rings have always seemed pertinent to me here (written, though they were, after the fact--at least, I assume so... I am actually not sure what edition of The Hobbit this statement about Elrond belongs to):

Originally Posted by Flight to the Ford

'Alas!' he cried. 'It was this accursed knife that gave the wound. Few now have the skill in healing to match such evil weapons. But I will do what I can.'

For the sake of completeness, the same chapter has a later quote on a similar note:

Originally Posted by Flight to the Ford

'Frodo has been touched by the weapons of the Enemy,' said Strider, 'and there is some poison or evil at work that is beyond my skill to drive out.'

Now, by itself this quote may not seem terribly remarkable--or even very pertinent--but I ask you to bear with me. In particular, it should be remembered that this is the first time Aragorn uses athelas in the story. I would also point out that in both these quotes, Aragorn marks himself as belonging to a select group of people who could heal such as wound, and as one who is not the foremost among that number. By itself, this could mean any number of things, but it crops up again, much later. In the meantime, as we well know, while Aragorn could only halt the Morgul-blade's advance, Elrond is the one who ultimately heals him. With this in mind, let us turn four books forward, right after Ioreth has remarked that "the Hands of the King are the Hands of a Healer":

Originally Posted by The Houses of Healing

Aragorn went first to Faramir, and then to the Lady Éowyn, and last to Merry. When he had looked on the faces of the sick and seen their hurts he sighed. 'Here I must put forth all such power and skill as is given to me,' he said. 'Would that Elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all our race, and has the greater power.'

(emphasis mine)

This later passage illumines the earlier ones from "Flight to the Ford," as it becomes clear that the "few" with the skill to battle the ailments of the Enemy are a race of people--the hands of the king are the hands of a healer and thus shall the rightful king be known. It is significant that Gandalf, far more powerful though he is than Aragorn, is not the one who cures the Black Breath.

Nor is it a red herring that the reference to "our race" here is aimed more at descendents of Lúthien (and thus of the Maiar) than of having "Elves and heroes of the North" for ancestors, since the mixed blood of Elves and heroes of the North (the Edain) only descended together through the children of Eärendil and Elwing, who were thus all descended from Lúthien. It is quite easy to read this passage from The Hobbit in that light, making "chief" the equivalent of "eldest." What is more, as jallanite's post suggests, the Dúnedain of the North were closely bound to the people of Elrond by this time. Elrond had the keeping of the Heirlooms of Isildur, including the Sceptre of Annúminas, which he hands over to Aragorn at Minas Tirith, and he fosters the Heirs of Isildur in his own house.

Indeed, it is also worth noting--though it's more trivia than intended surely, as far as this passage goes--that Aragorn and his mother Gilraen (herself a descendent of the Arnorian kings) were both in residence in Rivendell when Bilbo passed through. I mention Gilraen particularly, because I suspect that her case (that of belonging to a cadet branch of the House of Elendil) was probably typical of the Dúnedain of the North--even if it were not universal, their population must have dwindled to the point where having the blood of "our race" was more common than not. I don't think there's any need to make a case for Elrond being the interim chieftain of the Dúnedain to explain this passage however--"chief" does not only denote "chieftain" but also simply means "foremost," and I doubt that anyone would argue that Elrond was the foremost member of this "race," regardless of whatever formal status he had.

All of which is a lot of extracted thought from The Lord of the Rings on a fairly minor point in the text of The Hobbit, but it shows a compatibility between the texts--even if it was written before the The Lord of the Rings was ever conceived. And, if so, it demonstrates I guess the consistency of artistic vision that Tolkien possessed.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

I am actually not sure what edition of The Hobbit this statement about Elrond belongs to)

All of them from the first printing and onward.

It is quite easy to read this passage from The Hobbit in that light, making "chief" the equivalent of "eldest."

It is not easy for me since the word chief does not mean the same as eldest, though often (but not always) the eldest living male of a clan would also be the chief. This was not the case with the Dúnedain of the North who had their own kings and later chiefs of which Elrond was not one, unless he was possibly an acting chief during the period between the death of Arathorn and Argorn’s assumption of the chieftainship. It was also not the case with the Dúnedain of the South who never, so far as we are told, considered asking Elrond to take over their kingship when the line of Anárion failed.

I don't think there's any need to make a case for Elrond being the interim chieftain of the Dúnedain to explain this passage however--"chief" does not only denote "chieftain" but also simply means "foremost," and I doubt that anyone would argue that Elrond was the foremost member of this "race," regardless of whatever formal status he had.

I would be quite willing to argue that Elrond at this time was the foremost member of the descendants of Lúthien then alive. I quite agree that there is no need to make Elrond into an interim chief. There is also no need for my entire post or your post. The word need does not fit here.

All of which is a lot of extracted thought from The Lord of the Rings on a fairly minor point in the text of The Hobbit, but it shows a compatibility between the texts--even if it was written before the The Lord of the Rings was ever conceived. And, if so, it demonstrates I guess the consistency of artistic vision that Tolkien possessed.

This compatibility of text only exists if one plays somewhat dubious games with the meaning of chief. In that case the text is only dubiously compatible.

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

But if you recall, from Melian (and Luthien hearting Beren---and their descendants via Numenor) there is, especially in the Dunedain and through them extending eventually through Men a trace of elvishness. Perhaps that is what is alluded to.

That is what I said (or thought I said, near enough).

When Tolkien originally wrote this sentence he had not yet, so far as can be told, invented Elros and his descendants. If one is taking The Lord of the Rings into account, Elrond was never the actual chief of any of the people descended from Elros, so far as Tolkien indicates, unless the reader assumes an interim chieftainship when Elrond had undertaken the position of foster-father to Aragorn who was the future chief of the Dúnedain of the North by heredity.

Or one might take chief to be used loosely to mean not the actual ruling chief but a person of great authority and power among the Dúnedain of the North.

Tolkien never indicates who was the actual chief of the Dúnedain of the North during Aragorn’s minority. The passage I cite from The Hobbit suggests it was Elrond, but no more than suggests it.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by jallanite

All of them from the first printing and onward.

Good to know--I have no resources before the 1st Edition.

It doesn't really add anything to the discussion, but I find it interesting, and for the sake of completeness, let me add the original draft:

Originally Posted by The History of the Hobbit I: "Rivendell"

The master of the house was an elf-friend - one of those people whose fathers came into the strange stories of the beginning of history and the wars of the Elves and goblins, and the brave men of North. There were still some people in those day [who were>] who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was one.

Mind you, even if this only pushes the use of the word "chief" forward to the polishing that created the 1st Edition, that still predates The Lord of the Rings and thus antedates the first conception of the Ranger Trotter, who was the placeholder that prefigured Aragorn and the Rangers of the North. Thus, as far as this passage goes, it is pretty much impossible to say that what it still means in the 3rd Edition (the last one Tolkien touched, in a post-LotR world) is the same as what it meant in the 1st Edition, before the LotR had been conceived.

Originally Posted by jallanite

It is not easy for me since the word chief does not mean the same as eldest, though often (but not always) the eldest living male of a clan would also be the chief.

Of course not--I am not claiming the two words are synonyms; only that they are being used in a way that suggests a contextual relationship.

Originally Posted by jallanite

This compatibility of text only exists if one plays somewhat dubious games with the meaning of chief. In that case the text is only dubiously compatible.

I will grant that if the sentence ran "...was the chief," my argument would be unassailably stronger than the actual text of "was their chief." In that respect, your preferred definition has the grammatical high ground. Nonetheless, "dubious" seems like an overly-strong condemnation of my interpretation. After all, Tolkien uses the word "Chieftain" himself--and uses it for the very formal position about which we are debating. To use "Chief" formally either invokes black-and-white westerns with "Red Indian" chiefs or else the incongruous image of Lotho Pimple, who was called the chief.

Originally Posted by jallanite

Or one might take chief to be used loosely to mean not the actual ruling chief but a person of great authority and power among the Dúnedain of the North.

Tolkien never indicates who was the actual chief of the Dúnedain of the North during Aragorn’s minority. The passage I cite from The Hobbit suggests it was Elrond, but no more than suggests it.

The first of these two options, "one of great authority and power," is what I have been arguing for. Aragorn himself was the actual (that is to say, de jure) Chieftain of the Dúnedain during his minority. During his majority, he was similarly incapable of ruling his people while on his great journeys south and east, but there is nothing said of who ruled in his stead then. It seems more likely to me that some analogue of Halbarad ruled then--and during Aragorn's minority. Of course, this Acting Chieftain must have had great respect for Elrond and may well have sought his advice--but Aragorn himself does that.

This passage in The Hobbit does, I agree, suggest that Elrond was a formal chief, but if we read it with a hermeneutic of consistency with The Lord of the Rings, the evidence--as I read it--is against any such formality. More than any other reason, I would argue that you can't equate the Dúnedain of the North with half-Elves, even though I make the connection that many of them, in fact, had dilute Elven blood. It is an informal group of people to whom Elrond is their chief--and thus this line seems to be slender evidence for him possessing a formal leadership over another, not-quite-contiguous, group.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally posted by Jallinite
Tolkien writes:
In those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was their chief.

This is puzzling for any stage of Tolkien’s pseudo-history. Elrond was originally the sole ancestor of such persons rather than just their chief. It does feel like Tolkien conceives this Elrond as one of the descendants of the original Elrond and the chieftain of a household of half-elven folk.

But if you recall, from Melian (and Luthien hearting Beren---and their descendants via Numenor) there is, especially in the Dunedain and through them extending eventually through Men a trace of elvishness. Perhaps that is what is alluded to.

Of course, the elves in this chapter do seem rather like JRRT's early imaginings of elves (as contrasted to the elves later in TH in Mirkwood and the Battle of Five Armies).

[Bêthberry]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the tra la la lally song is omitted, although there is some potential in the elves' treatment of the dwarves for a bit of PJ's sense of humour to be developed.

Given the importance of Rivendell in the first movie, would it do to rush too quickly by it in TH movie?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Given the importance of Rivendell in the first movie, would it do to rush too quickly by it in TH movie?

If PJ will not add anything of his own,this chapter might merit a full 10 seconds. But knowing him, I'd say that the names will be the only things true to the book here, and the chapter will take up to 5 minutes, with some nice sub-plot. This sub-plot will ultimately become the reason for Elrond's warm welcome of Frodo in FOTR.



The sad thing is, I'm half serious.