Firiel...

[morwen edhelwen]

the "protagonist" (if the main character in a poem can be called that) of "The Last Ship". What exactly is happening in this poem? We know from the book (LOTR) that mortals are only allowed to sail West with Tolkien's Elves if they have special permission, as Frodo did. So what I don't understand is why the Elves in this poem ask an "ordinary" human girl to sail West with them. Even though this poem is much older than Tolkien's ideas of Elves in LOTR.. and he wanted to make it "fit in", it doesn't make much sense, either here or in the original 1934 version... which I found in another messageboard. Anyone wanting to talk? -Morwen.

[Nerwen]

Short answer: it doesn't fit. Not in itself, anyway.

From memory, though, Tolkien's catch-all explanation for this and other poems included in "Tales from the Perilous Ream", is that they're traditional songs which reflect actual happenings, if at all, only in the distorted way of folklore.

Following that concept, "Firiel" would be some unknown person's idea of how the "sailing into the West" business worked, rather than a true story. You know, just like the "Man in the Moon" poems aren't presented as a factual account of the life and times of Tilion.

[morwen edhelwen]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Short answer: it doesn't fit. Not in itself, anyway.

From memory, though, Tolkien's catch-all explanation for this and other poems included in "Tales from the Perilous Ream", is that they're traditional songs which reflect actual happenings, if at all, only in the distorted way of folklore.

Following that concept, "Firiel" would be some unknown person's idea of how the "sailing into the West" business worked, rather than a true story. You know, just like the "Man in the Moon" poems aren't presented as a factual account of the life and times of Tilion.

Interesting, Nerwen! So do you, for example, have an idea of what could have "inspired" this particular poem, for instance?

[mark12_30]

Isn't there another side to it?

What lass upon reading that poem doesn't wish "Oh, if only that had been me!" I know I did. It is far more compelling than Shadow Bride, or Princess Mee, for instance; and in a way, it is as heartbreaking as "The Sea Bell."

The point is, that it doesn't fit; WE don't fit. We long for the shores of Aman and cannot get there. As mortals, our destiny is beyond the circles of the world. But we want what the elves have. And for a stunning moment, they offer it to her. We WANT her to say yes, to sail west, and see the white shores.

Instead, she braids her hair, and gets to her day's work. And doesn't our heart break-- not just for her, but for ourselves as well?

[Mithalwen]

In response to another thread I was reading one of Tolkien's letters to Pauline Baynes where he says that these poems are "pictures seen in a tapestry of antiquity" . As has been pointed out they are not factual even in the way say that the song of Beren and Luthien that Aragorn sings in LOTR is .. the immortal elves can preserve their oral tradition in the way that mortals can not.

It has internal "evidence" that this poem has its origins (within the conceit of it being folklore of a created world) in Belfalas where the elves had the harbour Edhellond and where the princes claimed their heritage from an unprecedented union of elf and man (other than for high purpose). Such a place might be conducive to this kind of story. Firiel means mortal woman or she who died. The name was first given to Miriel where it makes sense. It's use in this poem suggests that it doesn't relate to a specific real person, rather a wish or as many fairytales are a warning or explanation of why you can't do what you might wish...

It is lovely but it is middle earth legend not history.

[Faramir Jones]

According to an 'editorial' footnote by Tolkien, which I think people might find interesting:

The name was borne by a princess of Gondor, through whom Aragorn claimed descent from the Southern line. It was also the name of a daughter of Elanor, daughter of Sam, but her name, if connected with the rhyme, must be derived from it; it could not have arisen in Westmarch.

Earlier, Tolkien said that The Man in the Moon Came Down Too Soon and The Last Ship 'must be derived ultimately from Gondor', and that the poems were 'only re-handlings of Southern matter'. So while the stories are of Gondorian origin, we can't be sure what was in the mind of the original Gondorian composer, though I like the suggestion of Nerwen:

"Firiel" would be some unknown person's idea of how the "sailing into the West" business worked, rather than a true story.

[morwen edhelwen]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

In response to another thread I was reading one of Tolkien's letters to Pauline Baynes where he says that these poems are "pictures seen in a tapestry of antiquity" . As has been pointed out they are not factual even in the way say that the song of Beren and Luthien that Aragorn sings in LOTR is .. the immortal elves can preserve their oral tradition in the way that mortals can not.

It has internal "evidence" that this poem has its origins (within the conceit of it being folklore of a created world) in Belfalas where the elves had the harbour Edhellond and where the princes claimed their heritage from an unprecedented union of elf and man (other than for high purpose). Such a place might be conducive to this kind of story. Firiel means mortal woman or she who died. The name was first given to Miriel where it makes sense. It's use in this poem suggests that it doesn't relate to a specific real person, rather a wish or as many fairytales are a warning or explanation of why you can't do what you might wish...

It is lovely but it is middle earth legend not history.

so does anyone have a thought on whether the time of 3 AM and the phrase "looked out" as in "lookout" have any significance? Tolkien could have used "awoke" or 6 AM instead...