Did Gandalf have a Plan "B"? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Inziladun · 07-07-2010, 07:31 PM

Throughout LOTR there is a common theme, at least to me, of people "accepting" the parts chosen for them in the great Play by an offstage Director whom they never see, yet know they still are bound to obey.

Gandalf is the main force in pointing characters to their assigned roles; somehow he has some foreknowledge of who should do what.

He it was who chose Bilbo Baggins to accompany the Dwarves to the Lonely Mountain. When he later learned that the ring found by Bilbo and brought back to the Shire was the One, he felt it to be in the right hands with Bilbo's heir, Frodo.

Quote:

'I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it.'

The Shadow of the Past

Having said that though, Gandalf also makes it clear that Frodo does have free will in the matter. He can refuse his part if he wishes.

Quote:

'And now,' said the wizard, turning back to Frodo, 'the decision lies with you.'

If Frodo had denied responsibility for the Ring, or had feared further involvment with it too much to agree to bear it (both reasonable conclusions from an intellectual standpoint), what other options would Gandalf have had? He wouldn't have dared to take possession of it himself to take it somewhere else.

Mithalwen · 07-08-2010, 06:44 AM

Interesting... I don't know if events would have conspired to force his hand had he refused but he, like Bilbo seems tohave felt the force of destiny and is compelled by it. And he is not alone - Boromir starts his journey long before Frodo and about the same time Gollum escapes from Thranduil's guard and so is the catalyst for Legolas' journey. "Fate" is drawing the fellowship together. I don't think Frodo had much of a choice about leaving the Shire, perhaps more interesting is his choice to proceed from Rivendell. Maybe the Ring had already taken hold or perhaps, his near death had meant there was already no turning back. I remember speculating about that in the chapter by chapter discussion years ago - must look again.

shadowfax · 07-08-2010, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If Frodo had denied responsibility for the Ring, or had feared further involvment with it too much to agree to bear it (both reasonable conclusions from an intellectual standpoint), what other options would Gandalf have had? He wouldn't have dared to take possession of it himself to take it somewhere else.

Had a situation arisen where the enemy would certainaly have taken the Ring had Gandalf not done something, I'm sure he would have taken it. What would have happened then and whether he would have been strong enough to resist it is another matter.

The Mouth of Sauron · 07-09-2010, 03:43 AM

If you think about it logically, Gandalf could have organised Frodo's departure from the Shire right after he discovered his ring was the One Ring. And he could have arranged for himself and a squad of Rangers, plus some of Gildor's people, to escort Frodo to Rivendell.

And in terms of logic, it was plain insanity for the Council of Elrond to hand responsibility for destroying the Ring to Frodo. Powerful people like Elrond, Erestor and Glorfindel are sitting there, and they say goodbye Frodo, lots of luck ? I don't think so.

Rhod the Red · 07-10-2010, 07:53 AM

Plan B would probably to give it to an Elf in Rivendell to either take it to the Sea and throw it in there or look for a scroll that tells of a way to destroy it somehow other than return it to Mount Doom. The former was discussed at the CoE, no Elves took it for fear of their lives and integrity.

Gandalf acted and thought in knowledge that he and the Free Peoples would have little ability to mould events; therefore he had the mood that they must simply do the best they can. But also mindful that events make history; people just ride them. In a manner of speaking. The Istari were prohibited from using magic in a massive scale, especially near in rivalry of Souron. Their role was to advise and lobby so that he'd be defeated.

Tuor in Gondolin · 07-10-2010, 09:03 AM

Free will always seems to play a determinative role in
Middle-earth. An example is Boromir insisting on
taking on the role clearly intended for Faramir of journeying
to Imladris (with Faramir among the Fellowship the tale would
take an intriguingly different turn). As to Frodo declining the Ring, I don't think it
could have been born by a powerful elf, for reasons Gandalf,
Galadriel, etc. make clear. Probably Sam Gamgee would have
had to be the default option.

deagol · 07-21-2010, 07:25 AM

'I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it.'

I think if we expand this to mean that "hobbits" were meant to have it we get a clearer picture of what is actually going on. I like the idea of a substitute hobbit. I'm not sure that would necessarily have been Sam, as his allegiance was clearly to Frodo, and he had promised Gandalf to protect Frodo -- not the Ring. But it's clear throughout the saga that hobbits -- Bilbo, Frodo, and even Sam for a bit -- have some peculiar resistance to the Ring's wiles that even elves -- and certainly not mortal men -- do not possess.

07-08-2010, 06:44 AM	#2
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,460	Interesting... I don't know if events would have conspired to force his hand had he refused but he, like Bilbo seems tohave felt the force of destiny and is compelled by it. And he is not alone - Boromir starts his journey long before Frodo and about the same time Gollum escapes from Thranduil's guard and so is the catalyst for Legolas' journey. "Fate" is drawing the fellowship together. I don't think Frodo had much of a choice about leaving the Shire, perhaps more interesting is his choice to proceed from Rivendell. Maybe the Ring had already taken hold or perhaps, his near death had meant there was already no turning back. I remember speculating about that in the chapter by chapter discussion years ago - must look again. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

07-10-2010, 07:53 AM	#5
Rhod the Red Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 257	Plan B would probably to give it to an Elf in Rivendell to either take it to the Sea and throw it in there or look for a scroll that tells of a way to destroy it somehow other than return it to Mount Doom. The former was discussed at the CoE, no Elves took it for fear of their lives and integrity. Gandalf acted and thought in knowledge that he and the Free Peoples would have little ability to mould events; therefore he had the mood that they must simply do the best they can. But also mindful that events make history; people just ride them. In a manner of speaking. The Istari were prohibited from using magic in a massive scale, especially near in rivalry of Souron. Their role was to advise and lobby so that he'd be defeated. __________________ Head of the Fifth Order of the Istari Tenure: Fourth Age(Year 1) - Present Currently operating in Melbourne, Australia

07-10-2010, 09:03 AM	#6
Tuor in Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Southeast Pennsylvania Posts: 3,651	Free will always seems to play a determinative role in Middle-earth. An example is Boromir insisting on taking on the role clearly intended for Faramir of journeying to Imladris (with Faramir among the Fellowship the tale would take an intriguingly different turn). As to Frodo declining the Ring, I don't think it could have been born by a powerful elf, for reasons Gandalf, Galadriel, etc. make clear. Probably Sam Gamgee would have had to be the default option. __________________ The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'

07-09-2010, 03:43 AM	#4
The Mouth of Sauron Wight Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Barad-Dur Posts: 196	If you think about it logically, Gandalf could have organised Frodo's departure from the Shire right after he discovered his ring was the One Ring. And he could have arranged for himself and a squad of Rangers, plus some of Gildor's people, to escort Frodo to Rivendell. And in terms of logic, it was plain insanity for the Council of Elrond to hand responsibility for destroying the Ring to Frodo. Powerful people like Elrond, Erestor and Glorfindel are sitting there, and they say goodbye Frodo, lots of luck ? I don't think so.

07-21-2010, 07:25 AM	#7
deagol Pile O'Bones Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 24	'I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it.' I think if we expand this to mean that "hobbits" were meant to have it we get a clearer picture of what is actually going on. I like the idea of a substitute hobbit. I'm not sure that would necessarily have been Sam, as his allegiance was clearly to Frodo, and he had promised Gandalf to protect Frodo -- not the Ring. But it's clear throughout the saga that hobbits -- Bilbo, Frodo, and even Sam for a bit -- have some peculiar resistance to the Ring's wiles that even elves -- and certainly not mortal men -- do not possess.