How many Rangers of the North were there ?

[The Mouth of Sauron]

When Halbarad and other Rangers caught up with Aragorn just beyong the Fords of Isen, Halbarad said that he had 30 Rangers with him, declaring : "that is all the brethren that could be gathered in haste".

That statement implies that there were others who couldn't be contacted in time. So how many Rangers of the North were there in total at the time of the War of the Ring and where were they based ?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

When Halbarad and other Rangers caught up with Aragorn just beyong the Fords of Isen, Halbarad said that he had 30 Rangers with him, declaring : "that is all the brethren that could be gathered in haste".

That statement implies that there were others who couldn't be contacted in time. So how many Rangers of the North were there in total at the time of the War of the Ring and where were they based ?

I don't think Tolkien ever estimated the amount of Dunedain remaining in Eriador; however, one could surmise there were at least a few hundred to several hundred, including women, children, the infirmed and the elderly, scattered across what was Arnor. I would assume there were several clans, with Aragorn as their chieftain, stationed in strategic spots to guard what remained of their fractured kingdom. I say several hundred simply because from a modern, revisionist standpoint, the gene pool would have gotten mighty thin and abherrent with a very small number continually inbreeding over the centuries. I wonder how many toes Aragorn had?

[Rumil]

Ah, Morth, the Toes of a King are the Toes of a Healer

On the one hand you'd imagine many hundreds or a few thousand or so Dunedain, as only a small proportion would be Rangers (say 10%??). The majority must have been farmers, hunters, gatherers etc to feed the population. Also the Rangers must have suffered some casualties in the fight against the Nazgul at Sarn Ford, so reducing the number of available warriors.

On the other hand, Butterbur complained of the withdrawal of their protection and of course Sharkey and the Ruffians seem to have staged their Shire coup without any Rangerly interference. This points to there being very few Rangers left to help out.

Hmm, perhaps there were more Rangers than the famous 30-or-so, but could they have been busy with something else? eg. defending their strongholds from orc raids, the wolves west of the mountains, doing some scouting and messnger duties for the Brethren, or something else??

[shadowfax]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Ah, Morth, the Toes of a King are the Toes of a Healer

On the one hand you'd imagine many hundreds or a few thousand or so Dunedain, as only a small proportion would be Rangers (say 10%??). The majority must have been farmers, hunters, gatherers etc to feed the population.

That is assuming that there was a formal deifinition for being a ranger as such. The rangers must have lived off something (Aragaorn did have coins) and I don't think it was all charity. I imagine that many of them worked their land or followed their trade much of the time but would go out into the wild as a ranger when called upon.

So on that basis, any male Dundeain who was old enough and able enough to be of any use in ranger activities was a ranger.

The idea of a professional full time army didn't really arise until the Renaissance period.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by shadowfax

That is assuming that there was a formal deifinition for being a ranger as such. The rangers must have lived off something (Aragaorn did have coins) and I don't think it was all charity. I imagine that many of them worked their land or followed their trade much of the time but would go out into the wild as a ranger when called upon.

So on that basis, any male Dundeain who was old enough and able enough to be of any use in ranger activities was a ranger.

The idea of a professional full time army didn't really arise until the Renaissance period.

*cough* The Romans had a professional full-time army.

Gondor most certainly had a professional full-time army and what's more there is a specific reference in the book to the "Rangers of Ithilien" who are clearly soldiers. Aragorn is definitely a full-time Ranger and although no doubt any able bodied Dunedain male could have taken up arms and helped out in a pinch I'd imagine that most of the Rangers were "full time". These guys were guarding places like the Shire - this couldn't really be considered a casual job.

As to how many Rangers there were in Eriador ... it's unlikely that there could have only been 30 (or 31 if you add Aragorn). Presumably there were other Rangers who were still guarding the women and the children of Aragorn's kinfolk in the North. We know that the watch over the Shire and Bree was affected due to the absence of Rangers, but it's unlikely that the Rangers' settlements would have been left unguarded. There would have been little point in overseeing a victory over Sauron and then returning home to find all the women and children had been carried off and/or slaughtered by orcs (or other dark forces).

Just at a guess I'd imagine that there were probably a minimum of 100 full-time Rangers and at least an equal number of other men. Then there must have been around 200 women, plus 100 children under the age of 18. So that's 500 already. That's not a huge number - there were probably more than 500 people living in Bree, and there must have been thousands of Hobbits living in the Shire. Halbarad's apology for only bringing 30 Rangers certainly implies that there were a lot more than just 30. Presumably that was just the number that could rounded up within a day's ride or so, and Eriador is a big place.

On the hand if there'd been 1000 Rangers then there would have been less of a problem sending a reasonable detachment off to Aragorn and still maintaining a watch over Eriador, so there can't have been that many.

[shadowfax]

Point taken for the Romans. Maybe also Gondor, being a properly organised state, modelled maybe on the Roman empire, would have had a properly enrolled and salaried army. But most other countries and states of Middle-earth probably lacked that level of sophistication.

Also, I do accept that Aragorn probably didn't have any job besides being a Ranger. He was in the fortunate position of being in Elrond's favour and would have received support from Rivendell.

Maybe some other rangers besides himself also enjoyed that priviledge, but there would have been a limit to how many of them (and their families) Elrond's purse, generosity and goodwill could have supported.

The fact that the rangers were keeping watch does not mean they were on sentry duties. It could also mean that they were keeping a watchful eye while going about other things. They may have lived in scattered homesteads and would have been aware of anything that moved in their vicinity and would have taken action as required.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

*cough* The Romans had a professional full-time army.

The idea of a full-time standing army has been around since Sumer. But the interesting thing is that soldiers were always paid by their country, whereas I can't imagine that the Rangers would have been paid, as they would be the ones who would have done the paying.

I'm sure whenever they got to a Dunedan settlement they would be given free food and a place to stay, but judging by the way Butterbur talks of them I can't imagine that anyone in Bree, or anywhere else, would do so. Which means they must have either been self-sufficient (which suggests that there were a larger number), or that they traded with other nearby peoples. But what would they be trading? I can't think of anything they'd have that anyone else would want, especially with their reputation- I'm sure if people traded with them they would have a better reputation and be more well-known. But how else would they have got resources such as metal?

[Archaic Elf]

Originally Posted by shadowfax

The fact that the rangers were keeping watch does not mean they were on sentry duties. It could also mean that they were keeping a watchful eye while going about other things. They may have lived in scattered homesteads and would have been aware of anything that moved in their vicinity and would have taken action as required.

I sort of think of the rangers as a police force. They may have been like sentries living in small communities (like Turin and his band of outlaws) in the woods. They had to be capable of hunting and living off the land for an extended period of time. Maybe they did this for short periods before returning to society for a season (where they had regular jobs), and then once again taking another shift in the wild later on. Maybe the people in and around Eriador paid taxes to help fund the rangers?

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

As to how many Rangers there were in Eriador ... it's unlikely that there could have only been 30 (or 31 if you add Aragorn). Presumably there were other Rangers who were still guarding the women and the children of Aragorn's kinfolk in the North. We know that the watch over the Shire and Bree was affected due to the absence of Rangers, but it's unlikely that the Rangers' settlements would have been left unguarded. There would have been little point in overseeing a victory over Sauron and then returning home to find all the women and children had been carried off and/or slaughtered by orcs (or other dark forces).

I don't know how many of the Dunedain escaped the sinking of Numenor, but I think it's safe to say that they would have married with other humans they met in Eriador. With that being said, there were probably at least a hundred rangers with thousands of people living in the region leading up to the events in the Lord of the Rings. The rangers would probably behave as peace keepers and security guards, and they would be scattered around the entire region. So it would have been a little difficult to gather more than thirty to meet up with Aragorn, and it would have been very unwise to not leave behind a force to defend their homelands. I guess thirty is a reasonable number to meet up with Aragorn if an equal or greater number is left behind. Did they know that they could expect to find Aragorn alive at that point or just how much their aid was needed by him?

Originally Posted by Rumil

Also the Rangers must have suffered some casualties in the fight against the Nazgul at Sarn Ford, so reducing the number of available warriors.

A good question (and an unanswerable question at that) would be how many rangers fell in their battle with the Nazgul at the border of the Shire? This is one action sequence that would have been cool to see in the Fellowship of the Ring. I imagine the rangers suffered some significant loss in the battle.

[Pitchwife]

Welcome to the Downs, Archaic Elf! Enjoy being dead, and all that. Reading your post, it seems you belong here.

Originally Posted by Archaic Elf

I sort of think of the rangers as a police force. They may have been like sentries living in small communities (like Turin and his band of outlaws) in the woods. They had to be capable of hunting and living off the land for an extended period of time.

Or rather like what Túrin's original band had developped into at the time of Dor Cúarthol. But yes, that's more or less how I'd imagine them - with a couple of safe havens like Bar-en-Danwedh to retreat to and meet at (I think Tolkien mentions somewhere that they had a settlement or 'fastness' of sorts in the Angle, but there may have been more than one).

Originally Posted by Archaic Elf

Maybe the people in and around Eriador paid taxes to help fund the rangers?

Meaning who? The likes of Barliman Butterbur (see Eönwë's post above)? Judging from his example, most of them didn't realize or appreciate what the Rangers were actually doing until the watch was weakened when the Rangers were busy elsewhere - let alone pay money for it.

Originally Posted by Archaic Elf

A good question (and an unanswerable question at that) would be how many rangers fell in their battle with the Nazgul at the border of the Shire? This is one action sequence that would have been cool to see in the Fellowship of the Ring. I imagine the rangers suffered some significant loss in the battle.

Yeah, that would be nice to see. Someone should suggest it to all those fan movie makers out there.

[Archaic Elf]

Thanks for the response Pitchwife. I've read the Hobbit, LOTR, Silmarillion (my favorite book), and Unfinished Tales, so I'll try to be useful around here.

Yeah, taxes would be a stretch, but I'm just throwing ideas out there. I imagine the rangers would be self financed more than anything, so they might work for a period before going on a long shift protecting the borders from orcs, wolves, and other creatures.

A thankless job no doubt. I guess that's where the desire for revenge against Sauron and all his minions helps to fuel their fire to do such an incredibly necessary job.

[Snowdog]

Thanks for getting some good discussion going here!

Originally Posted by Archaic Elf

I don't know how many of the Dunedain escaped the sinking of Numenor, but I think it's safe to say that they would have married with other humans they met in Eriador.

Actually, it's said clearly somewhere (i believe in the Appendices) that the Northern Dunedain (Arnor) kept their bloodline relatively pure as opposed to the Southern Dunedain (Gondor) where there was considerable intermingling with the Northmen of Rhovanion.This led to the 'Kin Strife' in Gondor. So there was a dwindling numbers of the Dunedain in the north over the years, especially it their keeping their bloodlines Dunedain. The question of numbers of Rangers at the time of the War of the Ring, and where they lived and raised families, are a mystery answered by some great speculation.

Originally Posted by Archaic Elf

A good question (and an unanswerable question at that) would be how many rangers fell in their battle with the Nazgul at the border of the Shire? This is one action sequence that would have been cool to see in the Fellowship of the Ring. I imagine the rangers suffered some significant loss in the battle.

I think they were just 'scattered' and driven off. No mention of any deaths that I am aware of.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

I think they were just 'scattered' and driven off. No mention of any deaths that I am aware of.

The idea that some of the Rangers died in the action at Sarn Ford comes from the UT chapter The Hunt for the Ring.

Some [Dúnedain] fled northward, hoping to bear news to Aragorn, but they were pursued and slain or driven away into the wild.

I wouldn't think there would have been all that many Rangers guarding the Ford to begin with; probably enough to turn away dodgy looking characters, but that's about it. They weren't expecting the Nazgûl to show up, after all.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

Actually, it's said clearly somewhere (i believe in the Appendices) that the Northern Dunedain (Arnor) kept their bloodline relatively pure as opposed to the Southern Dunedain (Gondor) where there was considerable intermingling with the Northmen of Rhovanion.This led to the 'Kin Strife' in Gondor. So there was a dwindling numbers of the Dunedain in the north over the years, especially it their keeping their bloodlines Dunedain. The question of numbers of Rangers at the time of the War of the Ring, and where they lived and raised families, are a mystery answered by some great speculation.

Yes, but....



The thing is, Elendil's four ships (plus Isildur's and Anarion's in Gondor) were not the only sources of Dunedain. The Numenoreans had been settling the coasts of Middle-earth for centuries, and the Faithful especially had been fleeing to regions near Gil-galad's realm (that is to say, Arnor) and about the mouth of Anduin (later Gondor). Although the arrival of Elendil's ships were undoubtedly a major catalyst in terms of culture and independence, and depending on the size of these vessels (presumably quite mighty), a boost to population, I don't think we need assume that the Dunedainic population of the realms-in-exile was limited to the descendants of these last-comers. Tharbad and Pelargir were both cities that predated Elendil (as was Umbar) and there were presumably Dunedain in the countryside as well.

Personally, I think where Elendil's arrival was most crucial was in the fact that he brought news of Numenor's end, and a clear royal presence to Middle-earth, the two ingredients that Arnor and Gondor were awaiting to break from Numenor. It's also possible that the highly talented craftsmen who fashioned the Argonath, Minas Anor and Minas Ithil, Osgiliath, Isengard, etc, etc, were in the train of Elendil--the elite who remained in Numenor where they could find employ despite being of the Faithful, until the bitter end. It strikes me as very likely that most of Elendil's company were the elite of Numenor, whereas the larger, older population of the Faithful-in-exile were of lower class background, having left for exile far sooner.

[aldredheron]

Again, it is very clear that the story is centered around aiding the Rangers of the North and gathering Aragorn's dunedain allies, all of whom are in Eriador, not Mirkwood. If there was a new area being added that would be the first thing they would advertise. Instead they advertise a new story centered in Eriador, an expansion of four existing skirmishes and a new skirmish which takes place in the Rift, which is obviously in Angmar. Do I think this is all that will be included in Book 1? No, but when they release these teasers they always include the exciting important stuff and there is no mention of a new land mass (which would be very exciting and important), so it is much more logical to assume that we will be adventuring in places we have already been.

[Pitchwife]

I wish I had but the slightest idea what you're talking about...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I wish I had but the slightest idea what you're talking about...

Good to see I wasn't the only one flummoxed by that. I thought at first it could be a reference to the PJ movies, but I didn't remember even PJ making up events in something called the 'Rift'.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Good to see I wasn't the only one flummoxed by that. I thought at first it could be a reference to the PJ movies, but I didn't remember even PJ making up events in something called the 'Rift'.

I imagine that it's something to do with the Lord of the Rings Online Game.

Back to the substance of the thread:

The North Kingdom was effectively discontinued in T.A. 1975, most probably because there were too few Dunedain left. Also at the time I imagine that they were scattered and in disarray after the fall of Fornost to the Witch King.

I'm not sure how big Fornost or Annuminas were - they were perhaps nowhere near as large as Minas Tirith - but I imagine that they would have required several thousand citizens, at least, to be viable cities.

That places an upper limit on how many Dunedain of the North lived in Eriador. If there were still thousands of them then they might have tried to re-establish at least one of the cities.

[Snowdog]

A lot of conjecture here and opinions and such. Michael Martinez covers a lot of the 'what ifs' and 'I thinks' in his writings on the Dunedain, and I myself have a somewhat non-canonical interpretation of them based on some RP and stories I've written over the years. But for a moment, let's look at what Tolkien wrote on the Dunedain Rangers in the various books...

Few now remember them ... yet still some go wandering, sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folk that are heedless. Tom Bombadil … The Fellowship of the Ring I - Fog on the Barrow-downs

Rangers - The Dúnedain of the North after the fall of the North Kingdom, secret guardians of Eriador (Unfinished Tales, index)

They came to Sarn Ford and the southernmost borders of the Shire. They found them guarded, for the Rangers barred their way.……some fled northward … Some still dared to bar the ford and held it while the day lasted. (Unfinished Tales, The Hunt for the Ring)

…the Dúnedain of the North, ……..a strange people wandering secretly in the wild, and other men knew not their homes nor the purpose of their journeys, and save in Imladris, in the House of Elrond, their ancestry was forgotten.(Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age)

When the kingdom ended the Dúnedain passed into the shadows and became a secret and wandering people, and their deeds and labours were seldom sung or recorded. Little is now remembered of them since Elrond departed.... (Lord of the Rings, Appendix A)

in the wild lands beyond Bree there were mysterious wanderers. The Bree folk called them Rangers and knew nothing of their origin. They were taller and darker than the Men of Bree and were believed to have strange powers of sight and hearing, and to understand the language of beasts and birds. They roamed at will southwards and eastwards even as far as the Misty Mountains; but they were now few and rarely seen. (Lord of the Rings, At the Sign of the Prancing Pony)

Aragorn said of the land and his abilities:

There is food in the wild,’ said Strider ‘berry, root and herb; and I have some skill as a hunter at need.’ (Lord of the Rings, A Knife in the Dark)

’Rangers have been here lately. It is they who left the firewood behind.’(Lord of the Rings, A Knife in the Dark)

Halbarad said:

‘I have thirty with me.’ said Halbarad ‘That is all of our kindred that could be gathered in haste; (Lord of the Rings, The Passing of the Grey Company)

A little apart the Rangers sat, silent, in an ordered company, armed with spear and bow and sword. They were clad in cloaks of dark grey, and their hoods were cast now over helm and head. Their horses were strong and of proud bearing, but rough-haired;…….There was no gleam of stone or gold, nor any fair thing in all their gear or harness; nor did their riders bear any badge or token, save only that each cloak was pinned upon the left shoulder by a brooch of silver shaped like a rayed star. (Lord of the Rings, The Passing of the Grey Company)

If there is more written specifically about the Dunedain of the North and they being Rangers by Tolkien, I would like to know.