Art!

[Lalwendë]

For all our discussions where we try and pin down the answers to questions like "but what did he mean?" isn't Tolkien's whole legendarium just one huge, complex and beautiful work of Art?

I would contend that there isn't one deeper meaning to it all, the evidence being that every reader finds different meanings in it, and some find none at all, they just like the way it looks, like Gimli when he saw the Glittering Caves of Aglarond.

I don't think even Tolkien could pin it all down to 'mean something'. He flatly denied it was allegorical in any way, and came up with umpteen ideas about this enigmatic 'meaning'. Maybe it's a symptom of the modern world that we're all Utilitarians and everything must have purpose, rather than just exist as a purely decorative and pleasurable object? Critics try and work out what the Mona Lisa is all about; isn't it just a beautiful portrait?

Of course, this line of thought risks cutting all scope for discussion dead, but it shouldn't. Maybe we should, instead of trying to find some useful purpose to Tolkien's work, just sit back and discuss the sheer poetry of it all?

What do you think?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Maybe it's a symptom of the modern world that we're all Utilitarians and everything must have purpose, rather than just exist as a purely decorative and pleasurable object? Critics try and work out what the Mona Lisa is all about; isn't it just a beautiful portrait?

And isn't even the beauty itself a purpose? (Or, as one of my teachers - and a priest he used to be - once said to a similar argument: "Life itself is a purpose.")

I guess Tolkien's works just have so many dimensions, which just proves how rich they are, like many other epics which deserve the attention, and which have found their popularity and enduring popularity in the history and throughout centuries or even millenia themselves just because of the same reason. With those books, and I believe Tolkien has the potential to belong to the cathegory (let's talk about it in a few hundred years), it's that they don't need any "advertising" or artifical way of labeling them as "classics", because they have and still can find their way to the humans' hearts themselves.

Books like these of Tolkien differ from the pure works of "simple belles-lettres" which do not have any more purpose than to amuse us, and also from the purely utilitarian books written in order to convey some message (which are often, alas, very badly written even if they are supposed to be nice to read).

It makes me wonder - it just occured to me - it is really possible that Tolkien himself did not perceive, or expect, the deeper thoughts and meanings behind his texts, and when he was writing it, he, just like Valar in his own story, "did not know that it had any other purpose apart from its own beauty".

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

It makes me wonder - it just occured to me - it is really possible that Tolkien himself did not perceive, or expect, the deeper thoughts and meanings behind his texts, and when he was writing it, he, just like Valar in his own story, "did not know that it had any other purpose apart from its own beauty".

This is what I often think. Tolkien seems to have been somewhat bemused by the fandom which suddenly blew up, and somewhat disheartened at having so many interesting letters to answer (he doesn't seem like the type who would just ignore it when a fan had gone to the effort of writing to him). The answers he gives to them are quite often contradictory when you read his letters in bulk - as shown by our endless discussions over "what he meant by x".

I think the germ of his work was simply an urge to write, to create this thing of beauty being inspired by so many different works of literature and art, and by his own life, by faith, by language. He spent years perfecting this writing so that it was coherent, even to the extent that he made names fot the linguistic patterns he had laid down, that moon phases and stars were correct. He was like a painter working in the most meticulous detail imaginable.

It almost seems a shame to pick it all apart and try to impose meanings upon it all, rather like looking at a beautiful painting and instead of sinking into the view to examine what sort of brushes were used and why. I wonder why we do that?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I think I would ask "define purpose." Giving pleasure, providing thought, or entertainment, amusement, something pretty to cover an ugly hole in the wall... all of those are purpose. Whether or not our modern world considers such things important or valuable is its own loss. The stimulation of imagination is, to me, something very important, valuable, and full of purpose, as both invention and culture need a healthy imagination to survive. It seems to me that Tolkien's work has provided a vast number of people with a powerful wellspring of inspiration, and that alone is a tremendous purpose, whether or not Tolkien intended it at first. Not everyone will think so, but then, some things I was once taught were the most Important Purposes in the world turned out to be some of the most negative influences on my life in the long run.

Purpose, I suppose, is very much in the eye, and mind, of the beholder.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

I think they were good fantasy novels.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I think the germ of his work was simply an urge to write, to create this thing of beauty being inspired by so many different works of literature and art, and by his own life, by faith, by language. He spent years perfecting this writing so that it was coherent, even to the extent that he made names fot the linguistic patterns he had laid down, that moon phases and stars were correct. He was like a painter working in the most meticulous detail imaginable.

Indeed. Three words: Leaf by Niggle.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I think I would ask "define purpose." Giving pleasure, providing thought, or entertainment, amusement, something pretty to cover an ugly hole in the wall... all of those are purpose. Whether or not our modern world considers such things important or valuable is its own loss.

Oh my! Well indeed - Leaf by Niggle. "He was of no real use to the Society." Did the Professor actually try to answer to us himself already a long time ago?

[Morsul the Dark]

I would say everything in Life needs a purpose and these novels are lovely but have the purpose of entertainment.

My philosophy on Art as Fea well knows is all about function

"Go for Form and Function, but if both are not attainable you need Function."

I always say that. Beauty itself I would say except in mating habits of humans Not a uselful thing.

So again I say LOTR entertains that IS it's function beyond that point is a realm for philosophers and critics.