The Military uses of the Palantiri.

[JeffF.]

As most of you know I'm particularly interested in the military aspects of M-E. LotR shows some uses of the Palantiri that reveal their usefulness as a source of Intelligence on the enemy e.g. what Denethor saw of the armies and fleets mustering against Gondor that caused him to despair. The Palantiri should have been as great an INTEL advantage as ULTRA was for the Allies in WWII and should have been the M-E equivalent of spy satellites as well as a secure means of communications (like ENIGMA should have been for the Germans of WWII).

When Elendil and his sons fled the destruction of Numenor and were scattered by the storms that resulted the Seeing Stones must have been critical in communicating with each other between the lands that would be known as Arnor and Gondor. According to the limitations of the stones revealed in Unfinished Tales they could not have been used aboard ship since they required careful alignment but once ashore their powers could be used to find each other and communicate.

When the Last Alliance went against Sauron the military potential of the Stones should have been used to their full potential. Though the attack against Minas Ithil that started the war is never written about in detail it is likely that it involved attacks by Orcs from holds within the mountains around Minas Ithil, mountains that have long been the borders of Mordor and likely filled with Orc strongholds. If part of the attack was through underground passages the Palantiri would have been of limited or no use in detecting those. The mustering of Sauron's Easterling, Haradrim and Black Numenorean allies could not have been hidden from the Stones. In any case it is likely that Sauron had no idea that Elendil and his sons possessed any and would therefore not have thought any precautions were needed. The Stones would have been a great advantage to Anarion as he held Osgiliath and the line of the Anduin River against the further assaults of Sauron (while Isildur went north to seek the aid of Elendil and Gil-galad). They would have enabled Anarion to detect Sauron's main thrusts and position the forces of Gondor to meet them while assuming little risk in thinning his forces elsewhere. As Elendil and Gil-galad advanced on Mordor the Stones would be perfect sources examining Sauron's defenses in detail (to aid in deciding how and where they should be attacked) and for detecting the maneuver of Sauron's forces, they were probably key to the successful retaking of Minas Ithil (which was held by Isildur's sons Ciryon and Aratan during the Battle of Dagorlad). During the battle of Dagorlad the Stones should have given ample warning of any tactical deceptions or troop movements Sauron intended (like those Morgoth used in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears). If the army had two or three stones with it they could have been used even as tactical communications at least between the major divisions of the army, to coordinate maneuver and attacks.

Sauron's armies must have greatly outnumbered those of Elendil and Gil-galad at Dagorlad but the Stones would have enabled a tactical advantage that should have been decisive, eliminating or reducing the "fog of war" for Elendil and Gil-galad giving them real-time knowledge of the exact disposition and movements of their enemy as well as seeing the exact positions of their own vast forces.

Even in the later wars of Gondor and Arnor, prior to the loss of the Stone of Minas Ithil, the Stones properly used should have prevented either kingdom from suffering surprise attack particularly from enemy men. The loss of the Ithil Stone to Sauron would have gone far to level the playing field or even swung the advantage to his side since using the other stones would have made their users vulnerable to Sauron's great powers. I would think that the Chief Stone located in Osgiliath would have been less vulnerable to a user of the lesser stone of Minas Ithil even when wielded by someone of Sauron's power.

[Inziladun]

I think there is too little detail about the Last Alliance and their deeds during the Second age to say the Palantíri weren't used for tactical or strategic planning. In fact the military victory over Sauron might seem to support the fact that they were. In fact, due to their use:

Thus the Númenóreans were aware of many things that their enemies wished to conceal, and little escaped their vigilance in the days of their might.

Silm Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

'Númenóreans' there must refer to Arnor and Gondor. The Stones had been given to Amandil, father of Elendil, by the Eldar in Eressëa during the last years before the Downfall, and the Faithful in Númenor, who were led by Amandil, were far from being 'in the days of their might' at that time.

The Stones would have had limitations, however. The minor Stones were smaller, and were the ones with fixed 'polarity', in that they would only work when the surveyor was looking at the face which corresponded with the surveyed direction. That would seem to make them unsuitable for use 'in the field'.
Conversely,the larger ones, such as the Stones of Amon Sûl and Osgiliath, lacked the fixed orientation, but were probably too large and heavy to be practically carried into a battle situation.
If the palantíri weren't present on the actual field of battle, I would think issuing orders to troops that were based upon knowledge gained from them to be somewhat problematic.

In the Third Age, Arnor and Gondor did communicate with the Stones, both with one another and within their own realms.
Arnor, however, quickly became divided into the three smaller kingdoms, Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhudaur (around the year 861), and they were unable or unwilling to unite against the Witch-king when he appeared around the 1300's.
Gondor also, fell victim to internal wars with the Kin-strife, beginning in 1432 (in which the Stone of Osgiliath was lost in the Anduin).
Arthedain probably used the Stones of Amon Sûl and Annúminas to coordinate its defenses, but I think they were simply overpowered by superior numbers.
As well, Gondor likely made use of the Stones of Minas Anor and Orthanc for military purposes for many years before the fall of Arnor. The Tale of Years shows them defeating the Men of Harad, the Corsairs of Umbar, and the Wainriders at various times before Minas Ithil was captured.

[Andsigil]

Even if one couldn't scry, the Palantiri would have had extremely valuable use as communication devices.

Think of how much time a phone, telegraph wire, or a semaphore telegraph saved when compared to a messenger on horseback, especially when coordinating between commanders.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think
Conversely,the larger ones, such as the Stones of Amon Sûl and Osgiliath, lacked the fixed orientation, but were probably too large and heavy to be practically carried into a battle situation.
.

I don't know about the Amon Sûl stone, but with the Osgilaith one there would be little question; as I recall the UT essay mentions that it is so large it takes four stong people to lift and carry it; not ideal for carrying into battle (though if you could mount it in a cart.....)

[Rumil]

Hi Jeff,

Yes indeed the palantirs should have been an enormous advantage before Sauron got his nine fingers on them.

I guess the response by Sauron in the Second Age is to move troops by night, which of course suits the orcs and trolls pretty well. In close country the orcs etc might be able to lie hid by day, but on the plains they should have been easily spottable.

This depends to some extent on whether Sauron was aware of the palantiri, perhaps he found out about them while he was in Numenor, or could have been aware via his 'powers' ?

One question is why Sauron didn't spot the Rohirrim appearing on the flank of the Pelennor Fields. However it seems that you must know where and when to look, and his attention was probably taken by the encounter at the gate. Also, the Rohirrim rode through the forest on their march, so likely not spottable, and even if Sauron had immediately seen them forming up, he would pesumably have had to send a Nazgul or other messenger to Gondor, which takes some time even for Winged Beasts.

These show the drawbacks of the Palantir - you must know when and where to look, I guess it doesn't work at night and it might take a long time to respond to distant events. Sounds rather like modern satellite technology or UAVs!

Excellent for planning a siege though, you could check everything out in immense detail.

[JeffF.]

Hi Rumil,

I think the example of Sauron not spotting the Rohirrim is one of focus, a similar problem to modern aerial surveillance. If your system is focusing on a small point to gain clarity or detail then most of the 'wide view' is lost. I think using a stone to search for the Corsair fleet sailing up Anduin is a lot easier than searching for a force of Rohirrim (particularly when Sauron probably assumed that Saruman was preventing the Rohirrm from reinforcing Gondor).

I did not mean to imply that the stones were not used to their full potential during the Last Alliance, i concur that the victory they achieved is probably proof that the stones were used to advantage.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rumil

One question is why Sauron didn't spot the Rohirrim appearing on the flank of the Pelennor Fields. However it seems that you must know where and when to look, and his attention was probably taken by the encounter at the gate. Also, the Rohirrim rode through the forest on their march, so likely not spottable, and even if Sauron had immediately seen them forming up, he would pesumably have had to send a Nazgul or other messenger to Gondor, which takes some time even for Winged Beasts.

I think the primary reason Sauron was blindsided by the Rohirrim was Aragorn. He had revealed himself by using the Orthanc-stone before leaving the Hornburg. That caused Sauron to ignore everything else and focus on Minas Tirith.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think the primary reason Sauron was blindsided by the Rohirrim was Aragorn. He had revealed himself by using the Orthanc-stone before leaving the Hornburg. That caused Sauron to ignore everything else and focus on Minas Tirith.

But as you said, that was before he left Rohan. Wouldn't Sauron know where the palanir was being used? If he wanted the heir of the Throne of Gondor to perish, then wouldn't he attack Aragorn first?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

But as you said, that was before he left Rohan. Wouldn't Sauron know where the palanir was being used? If he wanted the heir of the Throne of Gondor to perish, then wouldn't he attack Aragorn first?

I probably could have phrased that better, in that Sauron really wasn't 'blindsided' by the Rohirrim.
It was just that Aragorn declaring himself induced Sauron to move before he'd intended, and caused him to focus on Minas Tirith.
Sauron's plan already had been to attack Minas Tirith, which he saw as his most dangerous obstacle. It was the nearest to his realm at any rate, and from a logistical and tactical standpoint would be the first place he should strike. If he could capture Gondor's capital early, it likely would be a very short war, and even the Heir of Isildur would be much less reduced as a threat to him.
Also, Sauron had given thought to the Rohirrim, and knew they would probably come to the aid of Minas Tirith. That's why he had an army on the road in Anórien, to occupy and at least slow them down. With that in place, he disregarded that threat, and turned his attention to Minas Tirith, which he thought to quickly take and make a major step toward his victory.
Something else about the potential Sauron saw in the Ithil-stone is significant.
He didn't really need it for remote-viewing anyway, did he? Didn't the Eye fulfil the same function?

It must also be considered that the Stones were only a small item in Sauron's vast designs and operations: a means of dominating and deluding two of his opponents....

UT The Palantíri

So, the palantir in Sauron's possession really wasn't terribly important to him. At any rate, it doesn't seem to have been much use to him until Saruman and Denethor began to use their Stones.

[JeffF.]

I would think that the Kingdoms in Exile would have kept the stones in nearly continuous usage. Given their knowledge of astronomy (Unfinished Tales Description of Numenor) they must have known about the difference in sunrise and sunset at given longitudes and would have used the stones to see events in far off lands. During normal routine there was probably an agreed upon time where the Stewards of two stones would be scheduled to communicate with each other while the Steward of the Chief Stone in Osgiliath would listen in/observe on. Aside from military uses I would think that their equivalent of scholars, scientists and explorers would have applied for time on the stones to use them for applications in their areas of expertise.

I wonder what special properties the Stone of Amon Sul had? It is described as the chief stone of the North and is known to be physically large but it apparently does not have the same ability as the Stone of Osgiliath yet I find it hard to believe it was merely a large version of the minor stones with no unique properties.