Elves and Gondor

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Recently I started a thread about "Elves and Dunland" which elicited a number of interesting thoughts.

In the same vein, what about contacts between Elves and Gondor at the time of the War of the Ring ? At the Henneth Annun refuge Faramir, speaking about Gondor, told Frodo and Sam : "Yet there are still among us those who have dealings with the Elves when they may".

Any ideas on what kind of "dealings" they would have been and which Elves were involved ?

[Inziladun]

A very interesting quote. I find the full passage even more intriguing.

Yet there are among us still some who have dealings with the Elves when they may, and ever and anon one will go in secret to Lórien, seldom to return.

That alone leads me to believe that whatever contact the Gondorians had with elves was with the inhabitants of Lórien, who were the nearest geographically. There's also this from Haldir:

But there are some of us still who go abroad for the gathering of news and the watching of our enemies, and they speak the languages of other lands. I am one: Haldir is my name.

Haldir spoke the Common Speech to the Fellowship, which he would need to be fluent in if he dealt with Men, specifically the Beornings, the Men of Dale, and the Gondorians.
So, he and other elves of Lórien occasionally set out to learn what was going on in the world, and logically some of their contacts could have been with the Men of Gondor. Cair Andros, Anórien and around the Emyn Muil would appear to be possible meeting places

Faramir's words are a bit harder to read. He doesn't say if those who went actually made it to Lórien or not. I can't see someone like Denethor sending his people there, even for counsel; so those who would set out were probably doing it on their own, maybe out of a simple desire to see if things as legendary as Lothlórien and the White Lady really existed.
Perhaps those who went in search of it either were killed in the wild by various means, or were stopped from entering the Wood by Galadriel's power and turned back home.

[The Might]

I think that Inziladun already mentioned most of the important things, there seems to have been a two-way relationship here with both races trying to make contact with the other for whatever reasons.

The only thing that could perhaps be added is the idea that Men of Gondor and Elves of Lórien could also come into contact when the latter sailed down the Anduin to the Sea, or passed through Gondor and built a ship on the shores of the Sea.
Now the ship that should have carried Amroth appears to be the last one from that area before Legolas' ship, but we do know that other Elves must have passed over the Sea, for example Mithrellas, the wife of Imrazor the Numenorean, who most likely longed to pass over the Sea herself. Since we learn nothing else about here it is safe to assume that together with others she sailed as well.
As such, it makes sense that other Elves of Lórien may have done the same during Faramir's lifetime.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

While it would be a considerable journey, you would think
that peoples around Dol Amroth would have an especial
interest in their elf heritage and occasionally go on trips
north, either east or west around the White Mountains.
If Legolas could detect elvish ancestry in them then might
not Lorien wardens do so at least as quickly?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

While it would be a considerable journey, you would think
that peoples around Dol Amroth would have an especial
interest in their elf heritage and occasionally go on trips
north, either east or west around the White Mountains.

One would think so, but it doesn't seem they did.

'Hail, lord!' [Legolas] said. 'It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water.'
'So it is said in the lore of my land,' said the Prince [Imrahil]; 'yet never has one of the fair folk been seen there for years beyond count.'

ROTK The Last Debate

If Imrahil's people had been in contact with elves, I'd think his words to Legolas would have been different.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

A very interesting quote. I find the full passage even more intriguing.

It indeed is! Actually, quite surprising, and it makes me think that I should really try to get myself to re-read all of the LotR again and properly, because I haven't managed to do so for some time now and things like this surprise me! Actually, this quote looks almost fantastic - it looks so strange, so un-Middle-Earthish. Generally, I contribute all ideas of such inter-racial contact by the end of TA only to fanfictions and RPGs where people desperately want to introduce several races at once and so come up with tales of a lonely Gondorian wandering to Lórien or about an Elven scout going to Gondor, but obviously this quote from the very book moves the idea from the realm of pure fiction into, so to say, "canonical reality".

Personally, I believe the idea about people like Haldir going to Gondor makes lot of sense in the light of this. Also, I think we can imagine some Elf-obsessed Gondorians wandering North. The only thing I would argue against is this:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Perhaps those who went in search of it either were killed in the wild by various means, or were stopped from entering the Wood by Galadriel's power and turned back home.

I think this is actually a very limited view. I actually believe there will be a large portion of people who would just go into the forest... and disappear. Lórien is a dangerous place, place of "Elven magic", and I think that with many people it could indeed turn so that they enter the woods and then spend the rest of their life with sitting in a glade, gazing at the sun and literally losing themselves in the spell of Lórien. This is the way, I believe, in which Lórien would be protected against intruders - they would not go further into the woods, they would not reach Caras Galadhon, but they will be enchanted and simply remain there. Remember Bombur and the forest river. Isn't this the dangerous Elvish magic which made Elven woods so feared in the tales of Men?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I actually believe there will be a large portion of people who would just go into the forest... and disappear. Lórien is a dangerous place, place of "Elven magic", and I think that with many people it could indeed turn so that they enter the woods and then spend the rest of their life with sitting in a glade, gazing at the sun and literally losing themselves in the spell of Lórien. This is the way, I believe, in which Lórien would be protected against intruders - they would not go further into the woods, they would not reach Caras Galadhon, but they will be enchanted and simply remain there. Remember Bombur and the forest river. Isn't this the dangerous Elvish magic which made Elven woods so feared in the tales of Men?

In that case, would Faramir saying they 'seldom returned' mean those who did come back simply didn't make it to Lórien, or that they somehow were immune to the effect? Come to think of it, if most who arrived uninvited to Lórien simply dreamt the rest of their lives away, why were Haldir, Rumil, and Oropher so concerned about the orcs who crossed Nimrodel in pursuit of the Fellowship? Wouldn't it be a simple matter of hiding and letting them come under the spell, if that was Lórien's primary defense?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

In that case, would Faramir saying they 'seldom returned' mean those who did come back simply didn't make it to Lórien, or that they somehow were immune to the effect? Come to think of it, if most who arrived uninvited to Lórien simply dreamt the rest of their lives away, why were Haldir, Rumil, and Oropher so concerned about the orcs who crossed Nimrodel in pursuit of the Fellowship? Wouldn't it be a simple matter of hiding and letting them come under the spell, if that was Lórien's primary defense?

But of course you deal differently with one or two wandering Men and a warband of pursuing Orcs. Lórien had various means of defense, and each of them worked best in certain way on certain cases (and above all of that there was Galadriel's Ring).

[mark12_30]

This is fascinating. Melian enchanted Thingol (stood together with him, tis true) for years while the Teleri wandered in search of him; she protected Thingol's realm with her "girdle" of enchantment; Beren was, if I recall correctly, *allowed* through because Melian realized he had a great doom on him, otherwise he would have been bewidlered on the borders?

How creepy, to wander the borders of Lorien and meet enchanted mortals gazing into the treetops, hair and beard grown long and wild... Brrr.

A very fey interpretation, and good thinking.

--mark12_30